mapman Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) I've been reading the book From Darkness unto Light (which is excellent by the way), and in the section on the Book of Lehi it noted that many believed that Lucy Harris burned the manuscript but that someone else claimed that she had given it to one Dr. Seymour. I looked up the reference and found this passage from Arthur Deming's Naked Truths About Mormonism (1888), in an affidavit by W. R. Hine: Martin's wife cooked for them, and one day while they were at dinner she put one hundred and sixteen pages, the first part they had translated, in her dress bosom and went out. They soon missed the one hundred and sixteen pages and followed her into the road and demanded them of her. She refused, and said if it was the Lord's work you can translate them again, and I will follow you to the ends of the earth.Dr. Seymour came along and she gave them to him to read, and told him not to let them go. Dr. Seymour lived one and a half miles from me. He read most of it to me when my daughter Irene was born; he read them to his patients about the country. It was a description of the mounds about the country and similar to the "Book of Mormon." I doubt if the one hundred and sixteen pages were included in the "Book of Mormon." After I came to Kirtland, in conversation with Martin Harris, he has many times admitted to me that this statement about his wife and the one hundred and sixteen pages, as above stated, is true.(http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natruths.htm#010088-2a) The story seems a little garbled, and it is a late account from someone who is antagonist, but it seems significant that he claims to personally have seen the lost manuscript. Does anyone have any more information about who this Dr. Seymour is? Maybe Don Bradley knows something about this? Edited July 11, 2015 by mapman
Nevo Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 I've been reading the book From Darkness unto Light (which is excellent by the way), and in the section on the Book of Lehi it noted that many believed that Lucy Harris burned the manuscript but that someone else claimed that she had given it to one Dr. Seymour. I looked up the reference and found this passage from Arthur Deming's Naked Truths About Mormonism (1888), in an affidavit by W. R. Hine: Martin's wife cooked for them, and one day while they were at dinner she put one hundred and sixteen pages, the first part they had translated, in her dress bosom and went out. They soon missed the one hundred and sixteen pages and followed her into the road and demanded them of her. She refused, and said if it was the Lord's work you can translate them again, and I will follow you to the ends of the earth.Dr. Seymour came along and she gave them to him to read, and told him not to let them go. Dr. Seymour lived one and a half miles from me. He read most of it to me when my daughter Irene was born; he read them to his patients about the country. It was a description of the mounds about the country and similar to the "Book of Mormon." I doubt if the one hundred and sixteen pages were included in the "Book of Mormon." After I came to Kirtland, in conversation with Martin Harris, he has many times admitted to me that this statement about his wife and the one hundred and sixteen pages, as above stated, is true.(http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natruths.htm#010088-2a) The story seems a little garbled, and it is a late account from someone who is antagonist, but it seems significant that he claims to personally have seen the lost manuscript. Does anyone have any more information about who this Dr. Seymour is? Maybe Don Bradley knows something about this? Dan Vogel suggests that it was "perhaps Ezra Seymour (1784–?) of Colesville who is listed in the 1850 census as a physician." He goes on to note, however, that "since the translation manuscript was stolen in Palmyra, New York, it is highly unlikely that someone living in Colesville would come into possession of the manuscript" (Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:186n29). Hine claimed that the 116 pages were stolen in Colesville, where Joseph was supposedly translating the plates "in Badger's Tavern." Lucy allegedly stole the manuscript while Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris were at dinner. Nothing about the account is credible. 4
Robert F. Smith Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 .................................................................................................. Dan Vogel suggests that it was "perhaps Ezra Seymour (1784–?) of Colesville who is listed in the 1850 census as a physician." He goes on to note, however, that "since the translation manuscript was stolen in Palmyra, New York, it is highly unlikely that someone living in Colesville would come into possession of the manuscript" (Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:186n29). Hine claimed that the 116 pages were stolen in Colesville, where Joseph was supposedly translating the plates "in Badger's Tavern." Lucy allegedly stole the manuscript while Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris were at dinner. Nothing about the account is credible. This is fascinating: The Hollywood storyboard should include Joseph wearing the oversized Nephite interpreters (think of Arnold Friberg style spectacles for a viking) dictating to Martin from the golden plates open at the table, a pint of ale for each, and a cup of ink for the nib pen Martin wields. There in Badger's Tavern the spirits must have been strong -- especially during happy hour. 4
Hagoth Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Wouldn't it be fascinating to find those pages? We could gain some valuable insights into the influence of the scribe if we could compare the Smith/Harris translation to the Smith/Cowdery translation.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Wouldn't it be fascinating to find those pages? We could gain some valuable insights into the influence of the scribe if we could compare the Smith/Harris translation to the Smith/Cowdery translation. Or to compare whatever versions of the stories contained in those pages (Lucy, Emma, Martin, and others surely recalled the gist of the 116 pages). Don Bradley has no doubt gathered all accounts.
cinepro Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Wouldn't it be fascinating to find those pages? We could gain some valuable insights into the influence of the scribe if we could compare the Smith/Harris translation to the Smith/Cowdery translation. After 185 years of sermons and lessons based on the current version of The Book of Mormon, I suspect the appearance of the lost 116 pages would be annoying at the least, and catastrophic at the worst (especially to one or the other theories of geography).. Edited July 11, 2015 by cinepro
omni Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 Wouldn't it be fascinating to find those pages? We could gain some valuable insights into the influence of the scribe if we could compare the Smith/Harris translation to the Smith/Cowdery translation.After 185 years of sermons and lessons based on the current version of The Book of Mormon, I suspect the appearance of the lost 116 pages would be annoying at the least, and catastrophic at the worst (especially to one or the other theories of geography)..The story of the lost 116 pages is a perfect case study in favor of inoculation. Had it not been included in the D&C and instead been hidden from correlated history, I presume it would have joined the ranks of the many other "shelf-breaking" issues.
Hagoth Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 The story of the lost 116 pages is a perfect case study in favor of inoculation. Had it not been included in the D&C and instead been hidden from correlated history, I presume it would have joined the ranks of the many other "shelf-breaking" issues. I have heard people mention it as pretty high on their shelf breakers list.
hagoth7 Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) The story of the lost 116 pages is a perfect case study in favor of inoculation. Had it not been included in the D&C and instead been hidden from correlated history, I presume it would have joined the ranks of the many other "shelf-breaking" issues. I have heard people mention it as pretty high on their shelf breakers list. I never even put it on my shelf. I haven't seen it as an issue. To each his own, I guess. For that matter, I rarely put something on a shelf. I usually simply study it out prayerfully as soon as it starts bugging me. I don't like deferring things until later. Edited July 12, 2015 by hagoth7 2
omni Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 The story of the lost 116 pages is a perfect case study in favor of inoculation. Had it not been included in the D&C and instead been hidden from correlated history, I presume it would have joined the ranks of the many other "shelf-breaking" issues.I have heard people mention it as pretty high on their shelf breakers list.I've seen others mention it as a major shelf issue, but only from those who have already lost their faith. It seems as if the illogical nature of the story doesn't generally reveal itself until one has lost their faith. IMO this is likely a result of inoculation.
Rivers Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 It had never crossed my mind that the 116 pages could be an issue until I saw that South Park episode.
Avatar4321 Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 It had never crossed my mind that the 116 pages could be an issue until I saw that South Park episode.And that episode used it as a straw man.
Popular Post cinepro Posted July 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) It had never crossed my mind that the 116 pages could be an issue until I saw that South Park episode. Honestly, I think South Park totally nailed the outsiders reaction to the story of the 116 pages. Unless you are a believer, it is honestly one of the most absurd scenarios I can imagine. In fact, I would say that one of the best evidences that Joseph Smith didn't write the Book of Mormon is his theory behind the missing 116 pages. There's no way I would believe that someone who came up with latter could have written the former. Edited July 13, 2015 by cinepro 5
KevinG Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 For those who worship the Bible and Book of Mormon that would be an issue. For those who worship God, and understand the written doctrines and histories to be the product of inspired, but imperfect men, this shouldn't break any shelves. 3
stemelbow Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 I've wondered if the 116 lost pages were lost because Joseph being his first attempts, didn't have them come out as good as the rest. Like something changed for him and he got better at discerning, writing, explaining and all that. If we had the first 116 perhaps they'd be such a mess that we'd have 1,000 times more credible criticisms to deal with.
Calm Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 That is a new idea for me. Not bad. I have never bought the only reason why God had instructed Nephi to make his own plates and not just use Lehi's collection was for the replacement of the 116 pages. In the Church we have our SS manuals that have taken the writings of our leaders and abridged them down to the spiritual/doctrinal aspects that can benefit us so it seems natural to me that Nephi and the other prophets would also be instructed to prepare plates that were more focused on spiritual things to be used in teaching the gospel. I don't think the plates of any kind were simply made and then hidden away save for Ether, Mormon and Moroni where they knew their civilization was coming to an end and they were writing for those who were seeking God in the future. How else could the brass plates have saved the Nephites from unbelief except they were studied over time by their teachers, so it makes no sense to me that their own plates would be ignored.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 I've wondered if the 116 lost pages were lost because Joseph being his first attempts, didn't have them come out as good as the rest. Like something changed for him and he got better at discerning, writing, explaining and all that.If we had the first 116 perhaps they'd be such a mess that we'd have 1,000 times more credible criticisms to deal with.Yes, and, if this had been the case, one would have expected those pages to have been released to the press. No doubt Martin's wife was quite annoyed when the published Book of Mormon contained a book of Lehi which did not run counter to I Nephi through Omni, and likely cohered with that separate account. Awe doubtless turned to anger, and anger to hate. It has ever been thus with anti-Mormons. What was it Master Yoda said? “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate," etc.
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 Yes, and, if this had been the case, one would have expected those pages to have been released to the press. No doubt Martin's wife was quite annoyed when the published Book of Mormon contained a book of Lehi which did not run counter to I Nephi through Omni, and likely cohered with that separate account. Awe doubtless turned to anger, and anger to hate. It has ever been thus with anti-Mormons. What was it Master Yoda said? “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate," etc. Ahh what did Lucy know? She might not have realized how incriminating the text could have come off, or could have been spun, or whatever.
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