Sanpitch Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Just a simple question here, I don't want to get into a long discussion. Being around JWs and their firm opinion that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son brings up the question of who God is according to LDS. My understanding of Eloheim (not sure of the spelling) according to LDS is the father of Jesus and Jehovah is Jesus who is the god of the earth. But Eloheim is not a name it somehow is just designates a god or rather gods in the plural. According to wife, El is the singular for a god. So what is actually the name of Jesus's father, is there one? This has probably been covered before but I haven't run across it.
Kevin Christensen Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) See http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdfwhich is short summary of her more detailed The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. When the Old Testament is read with the presupposition that it is about One God, it is assumed that all the various titles—God Most High, YHWH, El, ’elohim and so on—refer to the One God. But this is not the case. Texts in the Second Isaiah, who lived shortly after the changes in Jerusalem introduced under King Josiah at the end of the seventh century BCE (2 Kings 23), show that both the names and the theologies were changing. Belief in God Most High and his son YHWH was being replaced by the monotheism that we now regard as familiar. In the older faith, YHWH had been present with his people in the person of the king, who had been known as Immanuel, ‘God with us’ (see for example Isaiah 8: 8 ). A key text is the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Deut.32:8-9, which has El Elyon dividing the nations among his sons, one of whom is Yahweh. For an LDS survey of the issues, see http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2003-fair-conference/2003-monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburgh, PA Edited July 8, 2015 by Kevin Christensen 2
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) What do you mean by name? The one his wife calls him? In what language would that need to be, would an English version be acceptable?My name is Cal...and yet it is not. You won't find Cal on any official documents, but it is what most people online call me. A name is just another label or title.The scriptures are full of the names of God. Lds have chosen to differentiate certain names between the Father and the Son in ways that others have not. Edited July 8, 2015 by calmoriah 1
JAHS Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Eloheim is the plural from the singular word Eloi. For lack of any other name we do call God the Father, Eloheim, which is not really a name but a title. Perhaps something Joseph Smith said would help: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, "Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aashamayeen vehau auraits"—"The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image." I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right. I came here to investigate these things precisely as I believe them. Hear and judge for yourselves; and if you go away satisfied, well and good. In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through—Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take {that} view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 6:475-76) Besides being associated with the title Eloheim (and many other titles), or God the Father, I don't think there is any other name that we can call Him. Edited July 8, 2015 by JAHS
Sanpitch Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 This is getting a little more complicated than I thought. But thanks everyone, it is interesting.
Zakuska Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 EXODUS 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name
Tsuzuki Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Just a simple question here, I don't want to get into a long discussion. Being around JWs and their firm opinion that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son brings up the question of who God is according to LDS. My understanding of Eloheim (not sure of the spelling) according to LDS is the father of Jesus and Jehovah is Jesus who is the god of the earth. But Eloheim is not a name it somehow is just designates a god or rather gods in the plural. According to wife, El is the singular for a god. So what is actually the name of Jesus's father, is there one? This has probably been covered before but I haven't run across it.Since all of the options available are either Hebrew or derived from Hebrew, the true name of the Father (who was around long before Hebrew was a language) is going to be none of the above. However, the four letter name YHVH in the Old Testament, mistakenly rendered as "Jehovah" in English, is the most holy name of God.
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Just in case you are interested: https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/parallel/paral19.cfm http://lds.about.com/od/jesuschrist/a/names_of_Jesus.htm (not sure if this is complete, the God the Father page did not have Man of Holiness listed, not impressed with it so not including it) Edited July 8, 2015 by calmoriah
Nevo Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Joseph Smith gave God's name in the "pure" (Adamic?) language here: http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832?p=1 2
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 And now that Nevo has reminded me... https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/ahman 1
Sanpitch Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 And now that Nevo has reminded me... https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/ahman That's simple enough, god's name is Awman and Jesus's name is Son of Awman. Also referring to Nevo's post.
JAHS Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 That's simple enough, god's name is Awman and Jesus's name is Son of Awman. Also referring to Nevo's post.So I wonder why most all prophets since Joseph Smith have refered to the name of God as Eloheim? Traditon?
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 So I wonder why most all prophets since Joseph Smith have refered to the name of God as Eloheim? Traditon?To avoid confusion I would think in part. Just as the Book of Mormon was tied to the KJV because at the time that was the common Bible for the people surrounding JS and using it rather than an idiosyncratic translation helped people connect to it better, I think using titles for God that others will recognize and not something unique to our Faith avoids an unnecessary obstacle to understanding and acceptance.
JLHPROF Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Eloheim is the plural from the singular word Eloi. For lack of any other name we do call God the Father, Eloheim, which is not really a name but a title. This is my understanding and feeling.The Eloheim is the council of the Gods as evidenced by its plurality, as well as a title given to its head.Members of the Eloheim are those who receive a fullness of exaltation and "are Gods". Members of the Eloheim can serve in many different capacities.
JAHS Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 This is my understanding and feeling.The Eloheim is the council of the Gods as evidenced by its plurality, as well as a title given to its head.Members of the Eloheim are those who receive a fullness of exaltation and "are Gods". Members of the Eloheim can serve in many different capacities."Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.And there stood one among them (Jesus?) that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him (Michael and the nobel and great spirts?): We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; (Abr 3: 22-24) Assuming the "nobel and great ones" are the "those who were with him", it sounds like they helped create the earth. Were they also perhaps members of the council of gods (the Eloheim)?
ERayR Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 To avoid confusion I would think in part. Just as the Book of Mormon was tied to the KJV because at the time that was the common Bible for the people surrounding JS and using it rather than an idiosyncratic translation helped people connect to it better, I think using titles for God that others will recognize and not something unique to our Faith avoids an unnecessary obstacle to understanding and acceptance. It also leads to confusion because the same word is used for different concepts.
Zakuska Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I know this is getting close to a line... but, in light of what has just been said in the past few posts, would it not be prudent then to use the name Awman in place of Eloheim in certain worship services we attend? Say when Michael (Adam) and Jesus (Jehovah) go back up to the "head God" (Awman) for instruction? 'Reverence' doesn't seem to be an appropriate excuse not to use the name in that setting. Edited July 8, 2015 by Zakuska
JAHS Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I know this is getting close to a line... but, in light of what has just been said in the past few posts, would it not be prudent then to use the name Awman in place of Eloheim in certain worship services we attend? Say when Michael (Adam) and Jesus (Jehovah) go back up to the "head God" (Awman) for instruction? 'Reverence' doesn't seem to be an appropriate excuse not to use the name in that setting.I agree with the avoiding confusion idea. We don't know many other words from the Adamic language so why confuse things by using this one word? We might as well be consistent with what has been done in the past. We can wait till the millennium when apparently we wil be using it then.(Zeph. 3:9.)
JLHPROF Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Assuming the "nobel and great ones" are the "those who were with him", it sounds like they helped create the earth. Were they also perhaps members of the council of gods (the Eloheim)? I would say that that fits with current Church teachings, although not necessarily past teachings on the Eloheim.But that's another issue for another thread.
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