Has Anyone Ever Thought This?

[Calm]

I don't think all would.

 

Being exalted has a price to it (obedience, faith, basic trying to be like Christ stuff), and there are people who won't want to pay that price.  There are people who are legitimately happier with 'less than'.

 

Don't forget (I am sure you haven't but just didn't identify the nitpick) the Celestial Kingdom includes more than just those who are exalted.  

 

I can see why even very nice and loving and obedient people might not want to be exalted if it meant sending one's children off to mortality and refraining from interfering too much in their lives where some might be quite miserable.  I can see someone just lacking that aspect of personality needed to be a god in that way....now whether or not this is the only way to be exalted I don't know.  Perhaps there is enough oneness that such people have the needed emotional support from others to be able to participate with God in the creation of other worlds as gods, but perhaps not and they may serve their family in other ways.

 

I think there is enough wiggle room to assume that the Celestial Kingdom has a high percentage of God's children returning to him, but that may not mean that there is a high percentage of exalted beings.  I am hoping to get some references for this besides the belief of progression between kingdoms but have a doctor's appt. I must go to.

[Calm]

Sounds like you need to correct the NT passage then. It reads as though the person doesn't know, even needing further explanation/condemnation from God. You say, he does.

Debate on, the Nehor vs the Word of God. Go.

1 Cor 13:12 says we will know one way or the other though.....and there is no indication that this is postjudgment rather than way before.

Edited June 16, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mystery Meat]

That's silly if ya think about it. Someone approaches judgment feeling completely confident in exaltation. When God says, "no...you have failed, loser." that person is supposed to just think, "hmmm...I guess I didn't want that anyway...duh...I really wanted far less than I thought I was going to get this whole time."

I don't buy it.

 

Imagine this:

 

Evangelical meets Jesus. Jesus tells Evangelical he doesn't get to live in the Celestial Kingdom. Evangelical says why? Christ explains many Mormon concepts (including, perhaps, polygamy) that are required to adhere to to live a Celestial life. Evangelical takes a hard pass. Is that such a hard thing to envisions? You, yourself have even suggested you might not want to end up in the Celestial Kingdom in this very thread based on how it might make you feel.

[Calm]

Remember that according to LDS doctrine, one could describe two judgments as happening (personally I think there are a lot more, kind of like what happens at the end of the school year and whether or not we get to move up a grade or not).

 

There is the one that occurs at death where it is decided in some fashion whether we go to paradise or go to spirit prison where people are taught the gospel (personally I think there are a lot going to be learning about the gospel, if not all of us so I think there is a huge overlap between paradise and the spirit prison in this sense).  I think this is when it occurs that people may be surprised at where they are at and find out how they worshipped God is not how he wants to be continued to be worshipped by them.  At this time I think selfdeception still exists, including telling ourselves we were doing things because God wanted us to instead of because we wanted it.

 

Then there is the judgment of those in the spirit prison as to whether they will accept Christ's atonement and repent at least sufficiently to be purified (removal of sin as opposed to taking on godly attributes such as love) or go to hell to suffer for their sins (I think it is more of a cleansing process than straight punishment, in hell one learns why sin is wrong and why it harms others and ourselves and thus it creates a desire to sin no more even if one doesn't desire to be with God).

 

And then after a bunch of other stuff apparently according to Joseph Smith that takes up a lot of time, there is the Final Judgment where determination of what eternity will be like for us and what Kingdom will be our state is done.  At this point I don't see how there can be any excuse that someone didn't know, what were they doing for the thousand years or more...playing video games ?

 

The Gospel Principles manual sort of covers this, maybe not as specific as I've gotten here, but I think I haven't made too large of jumps in my conclusions since we know that missionary work is going to be done and why would it need to be done if people already knew everything about God that they needed to know in order to follow him and be one with him or if they didn't, they never would try to get to that point?

 

D&C 19 also covers why there is some confusion between different scriptures over what happens postdeath but preFinal Judgment.

Edited June 16, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Everyone wants to theoretically love their neighbor, but does everyone seek to forgive when their neighbor does something jerky?  Nope.  Think of how awesome the world would be if we all actually did seek to love our neighbor.  It would be amazing.

In a sense, it is amazing. People of all stripes seek to love their neighbor. But surely it's not easy in some cases. Forgiving for doing jerky things is all relative. But I dare say everyone has forgiven their neighbor for something. But no one has forgiven every neighbor for everything.

 

I read a story about two neighbors who were fighting about a 10 foot strip of grass.  One of them actually ended up shooting the other one in the heat of the moment.  You can't tell me that both of those people wanted to love each other.  You don't accidentally kill someone in a fight over grass who you are actively seeking to love.  (It wasn't an issue of self defense either-just for anyone wondering.)

That's why I said there's a few psychos.

 

Everyone, but psychos, wishes to be a good person.  But not everyone actually seeks to be a good person.  Wishing for something and seeking it are to different things.  It's like all those people you see in the news who want to be good parents.  They just don't actually try to be a good parent and that's why their mugshots are all over the 5:00 news for leaving their baby at a mcdonald's because they wanted to go party but they didn't have a babysitter.

As I see it, wishing is part of seeking. you have to wish for it in order to work for it. I don't see the dichotomy quite like you do. But, sure, I'd say people who put partying in favor at keeping their babies safe are in the rare and psycho category, in my mind.

[stemelbow]

1 Cor 13:12 says we will know one way or the other though.....and there is no indication that this is postjudgment rather than way before.

Sure. I think we'll know eventually everything. Not sure that means at the time we face judgment, though. The story about people saying Lord, Lord seems pretty evident we don't know, and aren't necessarily happy/satisfied with the final outcome.

[Calm]

I know lots of people who would be happy to step in and help their neighbour in an emergency but are not interested in getting to know them at all and they are not introverts, they just don't feel the need to put effort into relationships with people that aren't interested in the same things they are, etc.

[stemelbow]

Imagine this:

 

Evangelical meets Jesus. Jesus tells Evangelical he doesn't get to live in the Celestial Kingdom. Evangelical says why? Christ explains many Mormon concepts (including, perhaps, polygamy) that are required to adhere to to live a Celestial life. Evangelical takes a hard pass. Is that such a hard thing to envisions? You, yourself have even suggested you might not want to end up in the Celestial Kingdom in this very thread based on how it might make you feel.

I just don't buy this application here. the NT story doesn't have Mormons and evangelicals in mind at all. I don't mind seeing people apply scripture in any way they want, but it's hard to make people buy into personal interpretations, I've found. The story could illustrate a Mormon who complains while giving a pass to an evangelical.

[stemelbow]

I know lots of people who would be happy to step in and help their neighbour in an emergency but are not interested in getting to know them at all and they are not introverts, they just don't feel the need to put effort into relationships with people that aren't interested in the same things they are, etc.

Are these folks destined to less than exaltation? or what's the point of pointing this out? Just curious.

[CV75]

Sounds like you need to correct the NT passage then. It reads as though the person doesn't know, even needing further explanation/condemnation from God. You say, he does.

Debate on, the Nehor vs the Word of God. Go.

The parables in Matthew 7 and 25 (if those are the passsages in question) only tell what the wicked said in perhaps a flimflamming attempt at defense, and not what they felt, knew or what their subsequent reactions were. And I’m not sure the hypocrites really appreciate what being on the right hand entails, except to have a prideful, competitive or covetous recognition that it is “better.”

[Mystery Meat]

Are these folks destined to less than exaltation? or what's the point of pointing this out? Just curious.

 

Not if they enter the straight gate (baptism, temple ordinances, etc., by one holding authority).

[Traela]

I assume that we will be judged on how we use the blessings we have. Consider wealthy doctors. Some spend their money on cars or boats or huge houses. Others use their financial stability to volunteer for Doctors Without Borders, or to otherwise make regular trips to help those in third-world countries. My kids' oncologist takes two weeks out of every summer to be the doc for a couple of cancer camps. That's in addition to his Church duties (he's usually in Scouts, or at least adds leadership on campouts).

The blessings we receive allow us the ability to bless others. It's all a matter of figuring out how to use the talents we've been given. Not that I'm good at doing that, I just understand the theory.

[stemelbow]

The parables in Matthew 7 and 25 (if those are the passsages in question) only tell what the wicked said in perhaps a flimflamming attempt at defense, and not what they felt, knew or what their subsequent reactions were. And I’m not sure the hypocrites really appreciate what being on the right hand entails, except to have a prideful, competitive or covetous recognition that it is “better.”

It's not a parable. he is saying many will stand in that day and claim to have done good things in His name.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Does Christ cast people out before the day of judgment? or does He hold open the opportunity to repent? I keep getting responses saying, "well it's just a choice. Not everyone wants to stand before the Savior and say they have done good works in His name. Most will be happy to receive condemnation from Him and spend eternity being less than they could have." I disagree. It seems like many will come to Him, not just a few, and will have thought they were truly on His side. After all many are called and few chosen. Many LDS will presumably go to Him thinking they've done good enough to continue in His presence. Sadly they will be turned away.

[CV75]

It's not a parable. he is saying many will stand in that day and claim to have done good things in His name.

Does Christ cast people out before the day of judgment? or does He hold open the opportunity to repent? I keep getting responses saying, "well it's just a choice. Not everyone wants to stand before the Savior and say they have done good works in His name. Most will be happy to receive condemnation from Him and spend eternity being less than they could have." I disagree. It seems like many will come to Him, not just a few, and will have thought they were truly on His side. After all many are called and few chosen. Many LDS will presumably go to Him thinking they've done good enough to continue in His presence. Sadly they will be turned away.

OK—either way, I think the same holds true.

 

In the Matthew 7 verses you provided, the Lord is saying that many pay Him lip service while working iniquity, in this case by using His name in vain while claiming to have been prophesying, casting out devils and doing many wonderful works. These may well have been deluded in the same fashion as Korihor (Alma 30:53) and Sherem (Jacob 7: 18, 19), but in their day of judgement, after they have been given every opportunity to repent and be truthful, they still defend themselves for what they have done. And so they are told to depart from Him.

 

Because of the Atonement, where mercy and judgement are brought together, I do think that Christ extends His arms of mercy to the last possible moment of His final judgement, allowing us every opportunity to repent. “Many” won’t repent as indicated in Matthew 7 (and D&C 76:109), but “many” also will repent (D&C 76:67).

 

At some point I think we all wanted exaltation; that is why we are being tested and prepared. But along the way this priority can change as we exercise our agency, and pride compromises charity, leading to error (not seeing as we are seen; 1Timothy 4:2) and away from truth (seeing as we are seen; D&C 76:94).

[stemelbow]

OK—either way, I think the same holds true.

 

In the Matthew 7 verses you provided, the Lord is saying that many pay Him lip service while working iniquity, in this case by using His name in vain while claiming to have been prophesying, casting out devils and doing many wonderful works. These may well have been deluded in the same fashion as Korihor (Alma 30:53) and Sherem (Jacob 7: 18, 19), but in their day of judgement, after they have been given every opportunity to repent and be truthful, they still defend themselves for what they have done. And so they are told to depart from Him.

These may very well be your or I. they may, in fact, be every LDS person who lives on this earth today. Or a mix of LDS, non-LDS, atheist, Buddhist, etc.

 

Because of the Atonement, where mercy and judgement are brought together, I do think that Christ extends His arms of mercy to the last possible moment of His final judgement, allowing us every opportunity to repent. “Many” won’t repent as indicated in Matthew 7 (and D&C 76:109), but “many” also will repent (D&C 76:67).

That's a nice belief to hold.

 

At some point I think we all wanted exaltation; that is why we are being tested and prepared. But along the way this priority can change as we exercise our agency, and pride compromises charity, leading to error (not seeing as we are seen; 1Timothy 4:2) and away from truth (seeing as we are seen; D&C 76:94).

Well, we all have mixed up priorities. We all encounter pride. we're all led to error to some extent and thus away from truth. It seems like most LDS view it as how far off people will go. You can err up to a point, but once you cross this line (which line differs for many people) you are going to be out. It may be that way, but I'm thinking I'll have much to feel badly for for many who for some reason or another crossed the line in the sand. It could be any of us and all of us.

[CV75]

These may very well be your or I. they may, in fact, be every LDS person who lives on this earth today. Or a mix of LDS, non-LDS, atheist, Buddhist, etc.

 

That's a nice belief to hold.

 

Well, we all have mixed up priorities. We all encounter pride. we're all led to error to some extent and thus away from truth. It seems like most LDS view it as how far off people will go. You can err up to a point, but once you cross this line (which line differs for many people) you are going to be out. It may be that way, but I'm thinking I'll have much to feel badly for for many who for some reason or another crossed the line in the sand. It could be any of us and all of us.

Yes, of course the passage refers to anyone.

 

I don’t know how else to describe “innumerable” other than as “indeterminate” and for me “many” gets the message across. And is far easier than Abraham: Facsimile 2: 11!

 

I feel badly for them, too. The heavens weep for everyone in torment (Moses 7), but it doesn’t end there (verses 44-47 and 67).

 

While it just may be poetic license, Psalms say the heavens laugh at those who have crossed the line (Psalms 37:9-15; Psalms 52; Psalms 59 and the like), and is another indication that the heavens do not weep for the lost forever. I think this is because: 1) any who suffer torment eventually settle down regardless of where they end up; 2) the Lord doesn’t lament “Perdition” in perpetuity  (D&C 76: 26 refers to a one-time, completed event), nor those “for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!” (3 Nephi 29:7); and 3) everyone moves on with their immortality.

 

You mentioned the line differs for everyone, so I think whether those who are told to depart are being told to enter torment as an opportunity to repent or to go ahead and enter their kingdom of condemnation would depend on whether they were genuinely surprised by their errors or just defending their hypocrisy.

[stemelbow]

Yes, of course the passage refers to anyone.

 

I don’t know how else to describe “innumerable” other than as “indeterminate” and for me “many” gets the message across. And is far easier than Abraham: Facsimile 2: 11!

 

I feel badly for them, too. The heavens weep for everyone in torment (Moses 7), but it doesn’t end there (verses 44-47 and 67).

 

While it just may be poetic license, Psalms say the heavens laugh at those who have crossed the line (Psalms 37:9-15; Psalms 52; Psalms 59 and the like), and is another indication that the heavens do not weep for the lost forever. I think this is because: 1) any who suffer torment eventually settle down regardless of where they end up; 2) the Lord doesn’t lament “Perdition” in perpetuity  (D&C 76: 26 refers to a one-time, completed event), nor those “for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!” (3 Nephi 29:7); and 3) everyone moves on with their immortality.

 

You mentioned the line differs for everyone, so I think whether those who are told to depart are being told to enter torment as an opportunity to repent or to go ahead and enter their kingdom of condemnation would depend on whether they were genuinely surprised by their errors or just defending their hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is difficult. In my many efforts in the world of hypocrisy, I don't realize I'm being hypocritical until or unless someone points it out in some way, or the following events help me realize I've been hypocritical.

[CV75]

Hypocrisy is difficult. In my many efforts in the world of hypocrisy, I don't realize I'm being hypocritical until or unless someone points it out in some way, or the following events help me realize I've been hypocritical.

I find that to be the case with ll my faults!

[rodheadlee]

Awesome thanks for sharing. I think we can do all and still realize the pain of others and the pain of eternity. It makes me sad to think some will be exalted and others will not.

 4 Blessed are they that ^amourn: for they shall be ^bcomforted.