Has Anyone Ever Thought This?

[stemelbow]

I feel the same way. How could anyone want to settle for being less than they could be?

But the older I get, the more I see that different people want different things than I do in their lives, that some even prefer mediocrity and boredom over putting effort into having growth and excitement in life.

That seems unfair to me. Some people feel intensely inevitability of things. Feel over-burdened, pained and overwhelmed by life, so they find themselves having arrived at "mediocrity" and perhaps "boredom".

Comfort is their first priority each and every time. I don't see it taking that much, just a willingness to push oneself on occasion...God will give us all the time we need as I think part of being no respector of persons is not differentiating in judgment between the spiritually gifted and the spiritually challenged as long as both are trying to use in some good way what has been given them.

Some people who enjoy challenges and continually push themselves often seem insular, and selfish to me.

"but that people were tortured because they were born in their particular situation and that some of these might actually find themselves in a lesser eternal condition than myself"

It won't be the experience of torture that will keep someone from exaltation if that is the crippling experience that it appears to be to us, IMO. We will be judged by what we are given (the advantages whatever those may be) and the Lord will provide healing for those who were disadvantaged (well, we all are in some ways) so that those disadvantages become in some miraculous fashion blessings bringing us to God (see in the D&C where God tells Joseph about being able to turn all things to His and Joseph's and everyone's good if we let him). If someone is currently in this life incapable of letting God do that, healing and teaching will come in the next life so that all will have a fair choice at some time in their existence to accept the blessing of the Atonement God offers us.

I find it interesting how much we think we know and understand God and His determination of fairness. All I really know is some will be exalted and many more will not. Why not? Because they won't have received ordinances and accepted certain principles. circumstance, culture and outside influence often play huge parts in what we learn to accept, when it comes down to it.

[stemelbow]

I'm giving a lot of rep points in this thread because I enjoy the thoughtful comments even if it seems I'm stubbornly disagreeing. This is good conversation in my mind.

[Calm]

There is a difference between having a fair chance to deserve/earn something and having a fair chance to choose. A person without sight can still desire to see the sunset. We will be judged by the desires of our heart, our actions are the result of the same desires but are very imperfect expressions of them...so imperfect that some may appear to be the opposite of what they really are (there are those whose desires to be loved appear to others as pushing those willing to love them away). God hears what people are really asking for and even more, finds a way to help them accept what they really want (he can heal so that those who want love learn to embrace instead of push away).

[bluebell]

how can we? No one deserves it. Fairness seems silly if anyone who doesn't deserves it gets it.

 

 

Christ.  The answer is Christ.

 

That's how people who don't deserve it get exalted.

 

But more accurately, the fairness i'm talking about is that you don't seem to believe that God can offer salvation fairly to everyone, or that He can give everyone the same ability and chance to choose exaltation.  That's what i mean when i say you don't believe that God can be fair.  

 

You don't have faith in God's ability to be fair to everyone.

 

nobility doesn't play any factors in this for me. I'm just thinking of my own ability to stay sane.

 

 

Nobility was not the right choice of words then.  Maybe it's that you think it will be better for you personally to reject exaltation and give it to someone else.

 

You are thinking of what will make you happy (sane) regardless of whether it's the best thing for anyone else (or even for you).  What's best for others, or even what's fair, is irrelevant in your mindset.  What seems to matter most is that you feel better.

[stemelbow]

There is a difference between having a fair chance to deserve/earn something and having a fair chance to choose. A person without sight can still desire to see the sunset. We will be judged by the desires of our heart, our actions are the result of the same desires but are very imperfect expressions of them...so imperfect that some may appear to be the opposite of what they really are (there are those whose desires to be loved appear to others as pushing those willing to love them away). God hears what people are really asking for and even more, finds a way to help them accept what they really want (he can heal so that those who want love learn to embrace instead of push away).

Sounds good. It seems to me there will not be an end to our learning and accepting good things. If that be so, then I don't know how we comfortably accept that some will eternally be less than others. Hard to wrap my head around.

[stemelbow]

Christ.  The answer is Christ.

 

That's how people who don't deserve it get exalted.

 

But more accurately, the fairness i'm talking about is that you don't seem to believe that God can offer salvation fairly to everyone, or that He can give everyone the same ability and chance to choose exaltation.  That's what i mean when i say you don't believe that God can be fair.  

 

You don't have faith in God's ability to be fair to everyone.

I guess not. I think people will always choose the good. It's what I've learned in life. People will always learn to do good. Sure some will do bad...well not some, all. We all choose good and bad. And ultimately everyone, ti seems to me, wants to do good--save but perhaps an extremely few. I think that will always be. How can we assume more will find themselves in the two T kingdoms if such be the case? Doesn't work out well in my brain.

 

 

Nobility was not the right choice of words then.  Maybe it's that you think it will be better for you personally to reject exaltation and give it to someone else.

 

You are thinking of what will make you happy (sane) regardless of whether it's the best thing for anyone else (or even for you).  What's best for others, or even what's fair, is irrelevant in your mindset.  What seems to matter most is that you feel better.

Only in that my joy or sanity, if you will, rests on the state and condition of others. I'm saying I could be happy feeling exalted over others if it were deserved. But if it's not, then I really struggle with accepting it, so much so I'd feel badly that others have less.

It seems silly to talk about deserving based on choice. if it were truly up to choice only we'd all choose the best and no one at the top would have to feel pity for others. The way it's framed--it's more than choice.

[Calm]

Perhaps the above post helps with the problem of the different need levels for change and security in one's life.

There is a wide spectrum of behaviours and someone who looks adventurous and willing to push himself can actually be resistant to change in other ways while those who appear to seek comfort above all things may actually be doing that so they can use what little capability to change that they have to the fullest degree. I believe all of us are a mixture though those who suffer from deprivations in their lives will have limitations in that area. My dad was someone who was someone who liked to be constantly on the move, accomplishing stuff in his life, but as he got older it became apparent that much of this push for growth was to avoid growing in other ways that were painful to him because his parents and youth taught him to fear those things or never developed that capacity in him (he was extremely generous and charitable, but he was never really able to look to the individual to tell him what they needed, he always knew what was best to be done....except he didn't in some cases). So his life was one of huge growth and huge stunted development. I think that might be the best we can expect, for most it may be minor or even very limited growth and much stagnation (and this may be as likely for those who have great wealth as well as those with great poverty).

I don't know how to judge the growth possibilities or the deprivations in anyone's life. I am not arrogant enough to believe I can know that some born in the US in a middle class home has more opportunities to learn to love and succeed than someone who has been enslaved all their lives, though it makes sense to me that one needs security as a foundation before being able to grow. But God is capable of such judgment so he can provide in the next life what lacked in this one, including removing the inabilities all of us have to take full advantage of blessings.

I think as long as we view mortality as tied into the rest of the process of progression and nothing is settled until the full life experience that includes eons after death (the long, long time referred to by Joseph needed to comprehend all we need to comprehend...we cannot choose until we comprehend, it is not a real choice until then) then the inequalities of life may cause us deep sorrow (not a bad thing, God is sorrowing over the same thing), but we will still have ultimate hope for eternal life for all our Family that want it and glorious lives even if there are some who end up not choosing exaltation for some reason I can't currently truly understand even if I use analogies of this life to think about why they might make such choices.

As someone who has health issues, I say "no" a lot to opportunities others give to me. I've created a very protective environment. There is a chance I am making these choices out of laziness and fear, but my hope is that I've done so in order to be able to give in the ways no one else really can at this time, being the only wife and mother my family has. I believe my hope is enough to provide God what he needs to teach me where I am wrong...which is probably most of it, but since I am willing to work with my kids given the littlest of pretexts, I trust that he is too and much better at being successful in helping me in the ways I need than I am with my family.

God judges or rather provides us the opportunities we can make use of, whether in this life or the next.

[Calm]

Sounds good. It seems to me there will not be an end to our learning and accepting good things. If that be so, then I don't know how we comfortably accept that some will eternally be less than others. Hard to wrap my head around.

Same here.

And I don't see progression as stopping for those who don't want it to stop plus God has promised we will be one with him, so while I don't understand how it might be, at this point I believe somehow inequality is removed from our experience while still allowing for our individual natures to flourish endlessly.

When it comes to Eternity/Infinity with God, "less than" will become meaningless.

[ERayR]

Not really. I'm all for having company with Him forever. I'd do it in a second and if given the chance. But, I fear I'm no more than any who ends up in Terrestrial. if so, why let myself feel exalted? Seems silly.

 

To start with you have no idea who will or will not end up where.  Second you were sent to when and where by plan for some reason.  Find that reason and fulfill it.  and finally Calmoriah gave good advice.

[thesometimesaint]

Stemelbow:

 

It is just about choice. Our actions indicate our choice, the intents of our hearts determine our choice. Does God feel sorrow for some of the choices we make? I believe so. That is why he offers us repentance. I have no fear that God sends us to anywhere that isn't our choice.

[stemelbow]

Stemelbow:

 

It is just about choice. Our actions indicate our choice, the intents of our hearts determine our choice. Does God feel sorrow for some of the choices we make? I believe so. That is why he offers us repentance. I have no fear that God sends us to anywhere that isn't our choice.

This doesn't make sense to me. All would choose the Celestial realm. But we already know many to most won't get anywhere near that joint. And we're told people will say things like, "But Lord, Lord, I knew thee" and He'll have to tell them, "oh get on outta here, loser."

Fewf! this is difficult stuff.

[stemelbow]

To start with you have no idea who will or will not end up where.

But I'm confident based on what I've been told from Church that most won't be ending up in the Celestial realm. Do you disagree?

Second you were sent to when and where by plan for some reason.  Find that reason and fulfill it.

It's certainly possible I was. It's also certainly possible God doesn't get into that game. We just randomly end up down here and we're expected to each make the most based of where we are, when we are, what we understand...all of that. I ain't as confident in confirming your dogmatic claim here as you are.

 

and finally Calmoriah gave good advice.

Sure she did, but don't feel bad, you've given some good pieces too.

[thesometimesaint]

This doesn't make sense to me. All would choose the Celestial realm. But we already know many to most won't get anywhere near that joint. And we're told people will say things like, "But Lord, Lord, I knew thee" and He'll have to tell them, "oh get on outta here, loser."

Fewf! this is difficult stuff.

 

I don't accept the premise that most will not accept the Celestial Kingdom. I think God is a successful parent. All will be most happy in any whatever Kingdom of Glory they choose. To truly be with and like God we must accept the bitter as well as the sweet. To know all things, and be responsible for our choices.

[bluebell]

This doesn't make sense to me. All would choose the Celestial realm. 

 

I don't think all would.

 

Being exalted has a price to it (obedience, faith, basic trying to be like Christ stuff), and there are people who won't want to pay that price.  There are people who are legitimately happier with 'less than'.

 

It's not very difficult to understand this about humans when you think of real world examples.  How many people do you know who are overweight and are that way because they don't want to pay the price they would need to to be fit (count me as one of those people who is technically overweight on the BMI scale and though there are times i wish i was lighter, i'm not willing to make the lifestyle change to attain that goal because i'm happier being able to eat more yummy stuff than i would be sacrificing that but wearing a smaller size). I bet you know a lot.  Or how many people do you know who smoke even know they know life would be better not smoking (more money, better health) but quitting is hard and they like smoking and they aren't ready or willing to make the change.

 

Everything has a price and some people will choose not to pay it, even fully knowing the reward for paying it is really really awesome.

[The Nehor]

This doesn't make sense to me. All would choose the Celestial realm. But we already know many to most won't get anywhere near that joint. And we're told people will say things like, "But Lord, Lord, I knew thee" and He'll have to tell them, "oh get on outta here, loser."Fewf! this is difficult stuff.

No, he will say you had no idea who I was and most likely if they did they would not want exaltation anyways.

[bluebell]

Only in that my joy or sanity, if you will, rests on the state and condition of others. I'm saying I could be happy feeling exalted over others if it were deserved. But if it's not, then I really struggle with accepting it, so much so I'd feel badly that others have less.

It seems silly to talk about deserving based on choice. if it were truly up to choice only we'd all choose the best and no one at the top would have to feel pity for others. The way it's framed--it's more than choice.

 

I've already talked about how we don't always choose the best.  There's a reason that the saying 'don't give up what you want most for what you want now' is so popular.

 

But on a different note, i just want to put something out there, just something i'm wondering if you've ever considered or thought about.  If i remember right (and maybe i'm not), you said once (paraphrasing) that you wished you could just give up your life and go and live in the slums so that you wouldn't feel so bad about being better off than so many other people.  And now in this thread you have talked about rather giving up exaltation to suffer with those in the terrestrial because it would make you feel better.

 

What i'm wondering is, have you ever asked yourself why your go-to response to feeling bad about having more than other people is to lower yourself to that level of suffering rather than working to raise them to your level of resources?  Considering that you suffering along with someone isn't going to do them any good at all, and all it really accomplishes is for you to feel better, while raising someone up to your level would actually bless both the suffering and yourself, doesn't it seem odd to you that you gravitate toward doing the thing that doesn't actually help anyone?

 

I'm not asking that because i think you are selfish or a horrible person or anything like that.  I think the opposite of you personally.  But, I'm asking because, to be frank, i don't think your feelings of self-debasement (for lack of a better term) come from God.  I think they come from satan and i think that he's using your natural God-given charity that you have against you without you realizing it.  

 

I think that if God were the author of your feelings that you would naturally desire to do that which will bless the most people, not do that which will lesser your own blessings while not blessing anyone else either.

 

I might be way off base here and i don't mean to psycho-analize you or anything or think that i know you better than you know yourself.  You know yourself best and what i am getting from your posts might not at all be what you are actually sending out.  I've been known to misunderstand every now and then.  

 

Just some things to think about i guess.

[stemelbow]

I don't accept the premise that most will not accept the Celestial Kingdom.

That's what I'm saying.

I think God is a successful parent. All will be most happy in any whatever Kingdom of Glory they choose. To truly be with and like God we must accept the bitter as well as the sweet. To know all things, and be responsible for our choices.

alright.

[stemelbow]

I don't think all would.

 

Being exalted has a price to it (obedience, faith, basic trying to be like Christ stuff), and there are people who won't want to pay that price.  There are people who are legitimately happier with 'less than'.

That's what I'm saying--it's far more than about choice. We all seek to be obedient and in some measure fail. We all seek to be completely faithful and in some measure fail. We all seek to be like Christ and in some measures fail. the price seems less about what we do but about the Atonement making it up for us. If so, then that price we are to pay seems arbitrary and almost pointless. A man of faith, by and large, is no better than he who pronounces no God--at least in my experience.

 

It's not very difficult to understand this about humans when you think of real world examples.  How many people do you know who are overweight and are that way because they don't want to pay the price they would need to to be fit (count me as one of those people who is technically overweight on the BMI scale and though there are times i wish i was lighter, i'm not willing to make the lifestyle change to attain that goal because i'm happier being able to eat more yummy stuff than i would be sacrificing that but wearing a smaller size). I bet you know a lot.  Or how many people do you know who smoke even know they know life would be better not smoking (more money, better health) but quitting is hard and they like smoking and they aren't ready or willing to make the change.

Well it's a bit more complicated when you break it down to individual situations. Some can't help it as much as others.

 

Everything has a price and some people will choose not to pay it, even fully knowing the reward for paying it is really really awesome.

I get this. I'm just not sure my point has been considered, but that's alright. We're disagreeing again.

[stemelbow]

No, he will say you had no idea who I was and most likely if they did they would not want exaltation anyways.

That's silly if ya think about it. Someone approaches judgment feeling completely confident in exaltation. When God says, "no...you have failed, loser." that person is supposed to just think, "hmmm...I guess I didn't want that anyway...duh...I really wanted far less than I thought I was going to get this whole time."

I don't buy it.

[bluebell]

That's what I'm saying--it's far more than about choice. We all seek to be obedient and in some measure fail. We all seek to be completely faithful and in some measure fail. We all seek to be like Christ and in some measures fail. the price seems less about what we do but about the Atonement making it up for us. If so, then that price we are to pay seems arbitrary and almost pointless. A man of faith, by and large, is no better than he who pronounces no God--at least in my experience.

 

I disagree.  We don't all seek to be obedient.  We don't all seek to be faithful.  We don't all seek to be like Christ.  I know TONS of people (good people) who don't seek those things at all.  All who seek after salvation will be saved.  So if we all sincerely sought those things, we would all be exalted.

[The Nehor]

That's silly if ya think about it. Someone approaches judgment feeling completely confident in exaltation. When God says, "no...you have failed, loser." that person is supposed to just think, "hmmm...I guess I didn't want that anyway...duh...I really wanted far less than I thought I was going to get this whole time."I don't buy it.

No, because when you die you get to remember all your faults and faulty justifications so God will not have to tell them they are a loser. They will already know.

[stemelbow]

No, because when you die you get to remember all your faults and faulty justifications so God will not have to tell them they are a loser. They will already know.

Sounds like you need to correct the NT passage then. It reads as though the person doesn't know, even needing further explanation/condemnation from God. You say, he does.

Debate on, the Nehor vs the Word of God. Go.

[stemelbow]

I disagree.  We don't all seek to be obedient.  We don't all seek to be faithful.  We don't all seek to be like Christ.  I know TONS of people (good people) who don't seek those things at all.  All who seek after salvation will be saved.  So if we all sincerely sought those things, we would all be exalted.

Sure we do. We all do to some extent. No one does the seeking perfectly though. But everyone wants to love their neighbor, aside from a few psychos, possibly.

I guess i'm just far more optimistic and positive about people then you--I don't remember if it was you or Blue Dreams who told me that.

[The Nehor]

Sounds like you need to correct the NT passage then. It reads as though the person doesn't know, even needing further explanation/condemnation from God. You say, he does.Debate on, the Nehor vs the Word of God. Go.

Awesome, I can win this one. Name the time and place and if you can get the Savior to show we can solve the "face to face" thread at the same time.

[bluebell]

Sure we do. We all do to some extent. No one does the seeking perfectly though. But everyone wants to love their neighbor, aside from a few psychos, possibly.

I guess i'm just far more optimistic and positive about people then you--I don't remember if it was you or Blue Dreams who told me that.

 

 

Everyone wants to theoretically love their neighbor, but does everyone seek to forgive when their neighbor does something jerky?  Nope.  Think of how awesome the world would be if we all actually did seek to love our neighbor.  It would be amazing.

 

I read a story about two neighbors who were fighting about a 10 foot strip of grass.  One of them actually ended up shooting the other one in the heat of the moment.  You can't tell me that both of those people wanted to love each other.  You don't accidentally kill someone in a fight over grass who you are actively seeking to love.  (It wasn't an issue of self defense either-just for anyone wondering.)

 

Everyone, but psychos, wishes to be a good person.  But not everyone actually seeks to be a good person.  Wishing for something and seeking it are to different things.  It's like all those people you see in the news who want to be good parents.  They just don't actually try to be a good parent and that's why their mugshots are all over the 5:00 news for leaving their baby at a mcdonald's because they wanted to go party but they didn't have a babysitter.