Nag Hammadi And Other Early Christian Writings As Proof For The Gospel

[readstoomuch]

So, the Nag Hammadi writings were some Christian Gnostic writings found in upper Egypt in 1945. The Gnostics had hidden teachings that only some were privy to. The implication was that they were given this secret or higher knowledge. There is a phrase in the gospel of Philip which talks about "the Lord did everything in a mystery, a baptism and a chrism and a Eucharist and a redemption and a bridal chamber." Sort of like our temple work. Later the same gospel describes the bridal chamber and what sounds like a couple marrying at an altar with mirrors (the bridal chamber). In the Nag Hammadi there is also several writings that have a blessing for the bread and water. Two separate prayers (called Eucharist A and B in the Nag Hammadi writings) for the bread and water. The prayers, especially one of them reminds me of our sacrament prayers. Bill Reel got me thinking about this because he did a podcast about the Apocalypse of Adam (from the same writings) as an external evidence of the Church. Thanks Bill-keep those positive proofs about the Church coming.

Gnostics are from being the perfect proof of Mormonism. They were apostates and had their odd beliefs. They do share teachings that have glimpses of our beliefs. Some of the apocryphal writings from just before and after Christ talked about Abraham and Enoch incessantly. Far more than in our modern bible. These writings give glimpses of our Pearl of Great Price.

Anyone else find these faith promoting?

[Tacenda]

So, the Nag Hammadi writings were some Christian Gnostic writings found in upper Egypt in 1945. The Gnostics had hidden teachings that only some were privy to. The implication was that they were given this secret or higher knowledge. There is a phrase in the gospel of Philip which talks about "the Lord did everything in a mystery, a baptism and a chrism and a Eucharist and a redemption and a bridal chamber." Sort of like our temple work. Later the same gospel describes the bridal chamber and what sounds like a couple marrying at an altar with mirrors (the bridal chamber). In the Nag Hammadi there is also several writings that have a blessing for the bread and water. Two separate prayers (called Eucharist A and B in the Nag Hammadi writings) for the bread and water. The prayers, especially one of them reminds me of our sacrament prayers. Bill Reel got me thinking about this because he did a podcast about the Apocalypse of Adam (from the same writings) as an external evidence of the Church. Thanks Bill-keep those positive proofs about the Church coming.

Gnostics are from being the perfect proof of Mormonism. They were apostates and had their odd beliefs. They do share teachings that have glimpses of our beliefs. Some of the apocryphal writings from just before and after Christ talked about Abraham and Enoch incessantly. Far more than in our modern bible. These writings give glimpses of our Pearl of Great Price.

Anyone else find these faith promoting?

You and I seem to read or listen to the same things. I listened while getting ready for church today so I didn't pay attention very well, I'll re-listen.

My problem with something like this is wondering if Joseph Smith learned of this before he started/restored the church and adopted some of it and integrated it into our church, just like he used masonry to help with the temple ceremony. But maybe this isn't one of those cases.

[Robert F. Smith]

There are a number of excellent sites available which demonstrate the compelling nature of Gnostic literature in the study of Mormon esoterica -- especially since Nag Hammadi, but not exclusively wedded to that particular discovery.  Unfortunately, the most important site is not online at the moment.  Some others are:

 

https://ldsfocuschrist2.wordpress.com/  (Steve St Clair) 

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ (Early Christian Writings) 

 

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html (Gnostic Society Library) 

 

Hugh Nibley has summarized many of the most important features of this literature in his “Evangelium Quadraginta Dierum: The Forty-day Mission of Christ—The Forgotten Heritage,” in Complete Works of Hugh Nibley, IV (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 1987), 10-44, online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute. byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1039&index=1 , and in his Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, 2^nd ed., 525-532.

[guerreiro9]

My problem with something like this is wondering if Joseph Smith learned of this before he started/restored the church and adopted some of it and integrated it into our church...

Seeing as how the documents in question were discovered in 1945 it would be all the more impressive and faith promoting if Joseph Smith learned of them before 1830...

-guerreiro9

[Robert F. Smith]

Seeing as how the documents in question were discovered in 1945 it would be all the more impressive and faith promoting if Joseph Smith learned of them before 1830...

-guerreiro9

Some aspects of gnosticism were already known from anti-heretical Patristic Literature, which Joseph undoubtedly consulted while doing his dissertation at Harvard (   ).

Then too, a great deal of the Forty-Day post-resurrection literature from late in the 19th century.  Nag Hammadi gave it all greater context and coherence.

[The Nehor]

The Nag Hammadi library may preserve some of the original church's teachings better then the rest of the church but on the whole they were heretics by both LDS and other Christian standards.

[The Nehor]

Some aspects of gnosticism were already known from anti-heretical Patristic Literature, which Joseph undoubtedly consulted while doing his dissertation at Harvard (   ).

Then too, a great deal of the Forty-Day post-resurrection literature from late in the 19th century.  Nag Hammadi gave it all greater context and coherence.

 

Was this also in that Palmyra travelling library. Palmyra must have had a lot of scholars.

[Robert F. Smith]

Was this also in that Palmyra travelling library. Palmyra must have had a lot of scholars.

Well, there was a good library in Manchester, and we even know the general contents.  Not sure about that traveling library -- was that a bookmobile? 

[readstoomuch]

I don't think he had access to the gnostic writings, but he did absorb, restore, expound and rediscover many aspects of the gospel from all sorts of sources. I think he re welded Christianity back to Ancient Israel by his writings. That is one reason why it is silly to me when people collapse over some Book of Abraham issues, but don't look at it within the context of the Apocrypha and Abraham. Ditto on the Book Moses and Enoch in the Apocryphal Writings.

I love the appendix on The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyrus. Cyril of Jerusalem and his lecture to the new "Initiates" is just out of this world. You can google Cyril of Jerusalem and read the lecture. When Nibley gets it right, he really gets it right.

Edited June 15, 2015 by readstoomuch

[Robert F. Smith]

The Nag Hammadi library may preserve some of the original church's teachings better then the rest of the church but on the whole they were heretics by both LDS and other Christian standards.

The trouble is that those other Christians were also heretics and apostates equally as much as the Gnostics, but in their own way.  It's called the Great Apostasy.  All sides carried with them authentic remnants of the original teachings of Jesus, along with all manner of Greek philosophical, theological, and magical accretions.

[The Nehor]

The trouble is that those other Christians were also heretics and apostates equally as much as the Gnostics, but in their own way. It's called the Great Apostasy. All sides carried with them authentic remnants of the original teachings of Jesus, along with all manner of Greek philosophical, theological, and magical accretions.

They were all apostate but the Gnostics went much further from the truth. Unfortunately we still have gnostic devotees trying to bring it back into the LDS faith.

Edited June 15, 2015 by The Nehor

[ERayR]

They were all apostate but the Gnostics went much further from the truth. Unfortunately we still have gnostic devotees trying to bring it back into the LDS faith.

 

In my very limited introduction to the Gnostic teachings it appears, to me, that it was not the Gnostics that went furthest from the truth. 

[The Nehor]

In my very limited introduction to the Gnostic teachings it appears, to me, that it was not the Gnostics that went furthest from the truth.

Probably because you focused on similarities. Keep reading.

[omni]

There was a poster back in the ZLMB days who although a little odd, seemed to be quite the expert on Gnosticism and its similarities to Mormonism. I always enjoyed his posts and thought they were quite convincing. It would be interesting to read them again now to see if my opinions have changed.

[rameumptom]

While there are some Gnostic concepts that somewhat agree with modern Mormonism, they Moare still very different. They are not "proofs", as there is no such thing as proof, only possible evidences.  Proofs would prove Mormonism true, but so far I see few people being converted to Mormonism via the Nag Hammadi library.

 

Key differences:

Gnostics are anti-materialism, while Mormonism is based upon a material God (he formed things from matter unorganized).

 

Most Gnostics believed that Elohim was an evil god that cast Adam from the Garden, and Yahweh came to restore mankind.  Jesus was a mortal man, who at baptism was filled with Christ - Yahweh.  Upon the cross, when Jesus said "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" it meant Christ had left him to die alone. As a reward for his suffering, Jesus was resurrected, however Christ remained a spirit.

 

While Gnostics believed there was a secret gospel or teachings, their secret teachings are very different than those things revealed to Joseph Smith.

 

Also note that not all the books in the Nag Hammadi are Gnostic writings. Some are non-Gnostic in nature, such as the Apocalypse of Paul, which is very similar to our endowment in many ways (an Ascension text).

 

 

When the D&C tells us that the Apocrypha was somewhat inspired, but filled with the interpolations of men, and only a person filled with the Spirit could benefit, I think it really applies to the Nag Hammadi.  I had to read it several times in order to begin to understand the concepts and teachings within it.  There are some wonderful teachings in it, but also some things that should be left to ancient history.  I do not recommend the Nag Hammadi to most Mormons, at least not until they've studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, Early Church Fathers, and a few other volumes first.

[Robert F. Smith]

.................................................................................................  

 

While Gnostics believed there was a secret gospel or teachings, their secret teachings are very different than those things revealed to Joseph Smith.

 

........................................................................................................  

While much of what you say in your post is correct, you are misinformed on this claim.

 

At http://fortydayminstry.com (which is still under construction) we list the primary Topics and Themes (many of them Gnostic) which parallel LDS teachings:

• Disciples Worried
• Apostolic Authority and Duties over the Church
• Infallible Proofs of the Resurrection
• Missionary Commission, Service, and Rejection
• Future Suffering and Death/Martyrdom of Apostles
• Prophecies about Terrible Things to Happen to those who Killed Jesus
• Apostasy, Cosmoplanes Usurps Authority, Sheep Turn to Wolves
• Alterations in Ritual Foreseen
• Second Coming in the Distance
• Secrecy of Sacred Knowledge
• Purification, Washing, and Anointing
• Sacred Vestments
• True Nature of God revealed
• Pre-mortal Existence and War in Heaven Explained
• Role of Adam and Eve Discussed
• Creation of Man
• Investiture or Endowment with Power
• Prayer, including Prayer Circle
• Marriage
• Descent to Underworld to Overcome Death and Hell and Proclaim the Gospel to the Dead
• Heavenly Ascent
• Apotheosis/Exaltation
• Mimesis
• Final Apostasy or Dissolution of the Church

A long list of the various documents which contain such themes is also presented.  One of the most interesting and extraordinary by far is the Valentinian Gnostic "Gospel of Philip," which contains "five stages of a complete initiation" (W. Isenberg in J. Robinson, ed., Nag Hammadi Literature in English, 3rd ed., 140) within a sacramental catachesis:

 

1. immersion baptism

2. chrism - anointing

3. eucharist - thanks

4. sote - ransom/redemption/salvation

5. koiton - bridal chamber (Holy of Holies)

[halconero]

Okay...there's a couple misconceptions here on Gnostics that need to be cleared up. I spent a good portion of my degree on ancient Christian texts studying them, and actually wrote my undergraduate thesis on the Gospel of Thomas, found among the Nag Hammadi scrolls.

 

1) The Nag Hammadi scrolls are better described as a collection of Greco-Roman philosophical writings, rather than a collection of "Christian" writings. There is just as much non-Christian literary material among them as their is Christian. Among these is a revised Plato's "Republic", Sextus' "Sentences" (a Pythagorean text), and Zostrianos, a Sethian text.

 

2) Gnostic as a label is becoming increasingly useless as an identifier of ancient texts. The pursuit of divine knowledge as necessary for Christian, non-Christian, pagan, Jewish salvation was actually quite common and banal among ancient religious thought and there was no clear group of "Gnostics."

 

3) Gnosticism, if it can be used, is more descriptive of a philsophical school of thought than a specific group or groups.

 

4) It is also quite antagonistic to modern LDS thought. Yes there are some similarities on the surface. But anti-materialism, the quest for gender-androgyny, and the lack of redemption from sin are all hostile to the Restored Gospel.

[readstoomuch]

Despite anti-materialism and numerous gnostic heresies, I present On the Eucharist A:

We give thanks to you and we celebrate the Eucharist, O Father, remembering for the sake of thy Son, Jesus Christ that they come forth...invisible...thy Son...his love...to knowledge...they are doing thy will through the name of Jesus Christ and will do thy will now and always. They are complete in spiritual gift and every purity. Glory be to thee through thy Son and thy offspring from now and forever. Amen.

I think the two Eucharist prayers have phrases that remind me of the two prayers we use today. Even the fact that there are two prayers intrigues me. ....means a break or unreadable section of the manuscript. I think Bart Ehrmans books about the missing gospels puts Gnostics and other apostates in perspective. Full of heresies-yes. Full of enlightening doctrines of Christianity not found other places-yes!

[rameumptom]

Robert, i recognize there are some books in the Nag Hammadi that are very interesting to the LDS, such as the Gospel of Phillip. That said, you are cherry picking.  While some may seem to discuss LDS themes, most do not. Their anti-materialism, as I've noted, is completely opposite what we believe.

 

Yes, there were a variety of Gnostic sects, each with differing views.  But most had secret teachings very different from our own.  And I did not misrepresent anything.  I've studied Gnosticism for years, from scholars like April DeConick.  

[HappyJackWagon]

This is a fascinating discussion and it's been years since I dabbled with gnostic studies in college.

 

So, I'm seeing 2 camps here.

 

1- Some Gnostic writings (primarily the Book of Phillip) provide validation of some restoration topics with similarities to temple rites

 

2- Gnosticism is generally antithetical to LDS belief and is a heresy. Any parallels are only surface level comparisons and since the overall themes of gnosticism (anti-materialism, androgeny etc) do not match up with LDS theology in the slightest we shouldn't read to much into the parallels.

 

So my question is this- When considering these varying approaches to gnosticism, how do we make sense of the parallels? Coincidence? Or is it just a case of presentism, reading our current understanding into ancient writings? Thoughts?

Edited June 16, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[The Nehor]

So my question is this- When considering these varying approaches to gnosticism, how do we make sense of the parallels? Coincidence? Or is it just a case of presentism, reading our current understanding into ancient writings? Thoughts?

I suspect some of each. The Gnostics certainly latched onto a few concept of the original gospel that the rest of Christianity rejected and they survived for a short time (usually in a perverted form) only within Gnosticism.

[halconero]

This is a fascinating discussion and it's been years since I dabbled with gnostic studies in college.

So, I'm seeing 2 camps here.

1- Some Gnostic writings (primarily the Book of Phillip) provide validation of some restoration topics with similarities to temple rites

2- Gnosticism is generally antithetical to LDS belief and is a heresy. Any parallels are only surface level comparisons and since the overall themes of gnosticism (anti-materialism, androgeny etc) do not match up with LDS theology in the slightest we shouldn't read to much into the parallels.

So my question is this- When considering these varying approaches to gnosticism, how do we make sense of the parallels? Coincidence? Or is it just a case of presentism, reading our current understanding into ancient writings? Thoughts?

Variety.

It is easier to understand ancient religions in the context of "Christianities," "Judaisms," and even "Christojudaisms." To elaborate further, it is even more accurate to consider the different faiths as schools of thought with mostly autonomous groups cherry picking beliefs from one or more school. You didn't have a bible. A group would have access to just one or maybe two Gospels or epistles, and supplement it with the writings of other non-Christian writers (Plato, Philo, Epicurus, etc).

So, there were probably some groups with "Gnostic" leanings that held doctrines closer to LDS practice and thought, and others far off in the left field.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, i recognize there are some books in the Nag Hammadi that are very interesting to the LDS, such as the Gospel of Phillip. That said, you are cherry picking.  While some may seem to discuss LDS themes, most do not. Their anti-materialism, as I've noted, is completely opposite what we believe.

 

Yes, there were a variety of Gnostic sects, each with differing views.  But most had secret teachings very different from our own.  And I did not misrepresent anything.  I've studied Gnosticism for years, from scholars like April DeConick.  

You might want to ask why it is that such disparate persons as Walter Martin and Harold Bloom consider Mormons to be gnostic.  http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2496-Are-Mormons-Gnostics , and Bloom, The American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation, 2nd ed. (Chu Hartley Publ., 2006).

[rameumptom]

I don't consider Walter Martin worth my time. I have read Harold Bloom's work.  I do agree that in some ways we are a form of modern gnosticism.  We believe in a revealed/secret teaching that most Christians do not have.   That said, regular Christianity is more immaterial than is Mormonism, and so in that sense is closer to Gnosticism.  The beliefs of ex nihilo creation, and God as only a spirit in Trinity, sound closer to gnosticism than does the Mormon Godhead and creation from existing material.

 

As for how I would justify Mormonism using the Nag Hammadi (particularly Gospel of Philip, and the like), I would say that such teachings show that it shows similar LDS teachings were believed and practices by some ancient Christians.

[phaedrus ut]

IMO The Gospel of Thomas from in codex II of the Nag Hammadi Library contains what are likely the most authentic sayings of Jesus.  It helped me understand the role a sayings gospel played in the composition of the synoptic gospels and added additional confirmation to sayings used by John and Paul.  Historical Jesus scholars value the Gospel of Thomas so highly it's often referred to as The Fifth Gospel.  I would highly recommend it to any Latter Day Saint interested in expanding their study of Jesus of Nazareth to spend some time with the text.

 

 

Phaedrus