Is Denver Snuffer The Lamanite On The Wall Preaching Repentance?

[rodheadlee]

I didn't want to derail the op on the thread where this statement was made by BookofMormonLuvr: "Like Samuel the Lamanite who climbed up on the wall?

"Who is this Lamanite to tell us to repent?"

I am no "Snufferite"- but ya'll gonna have to do better. What does he teach that is wrong, for example?"

 

To further examine this statement we first need to know what Samuel was preaching from the wall.

This is from Helaman 13:

 

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do ^acast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

  25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our ^afathers of old, we would not have ^bslain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

  26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a ^aprophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your^bsins and iniquities, ye are ^cangry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a ^dfalse ^eprophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he ^ftestifieth that your deeds are evil.

  27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: ^aWalk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a ^bprophet.

  28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh ^aflattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

  29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye ^astiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by ^bfoolish and ^cblind guides? Yea, how long will ye ^dchoose darkness rather than ^elight?

 

These are statements by the poster Investigating regarding Denver's theology. I have to assume they are true as I have neither the time nor inclination to wade through hours of podcasts and blog posts to nail down his posistion as the Holy Spirit gives me no thoughts to do so.

 

Investigating says: " I think they believe the leadership of the LDS church lost their priesthood keys when they excommunicated Denver Snuffer.

 

 

To hear them tell it the LDS Church was suppose to be a society of equals, and any hierarchy of authority is evidence of some kind of a fall.

 

Actually, I think they kinda think of themselves as the restored Church".

 

My thoughts are that I see many people stoning the prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many among our own members including Denver. I see Denver as an usurper of authority trying to enter the Kingdom of God by some other way. Hence my reason for posting John 10: 1-11. These are Jesus Christ's own words.

 

 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

  2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the ^asheep.

  3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his ^avoice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and ^bleadeth them out.

  4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they ^aknow his ^bvoice.

  5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of ^astrangers.

  6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

  7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the ^adoor of the sheep.

  8 All that ever came before me ^aare thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

  9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

  10 The thief cometh not, but for to ^asteal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have ^blife, and that they might have it more ^cabundantly.

  11 I am the good ^ashepherd: the good ^bshepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

I also see a description of the Dehlinites in Samuel's words. This all reminds me of D&C 76:

 

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

  99 For these are they who are of ^aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

  100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of ^aEsaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

 

 

Jesus Christ has gone through much time and trouble to bring about the work of His Church. He is a God of order not a God of confusion. If His Church were in apostasy I believe he is fully capable of fixing what is broken from the top down. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the pinnacle of the Christian churches on earth today and that all roads lead to it. I myself am a covert from EV/ Protestant teachings and my wife from Catholic teachings. I have literally heard the Word of God, been ministered to by angels, have had visions and have called upon my power and authority of the Aaronic Priesthood, given to me through proper channels, to call down the help of angels for others. I tell you this as a sinner wanting to point out that the same experiences are available to anyone who humbles themselves before the Lord with true unselfish desire. You don't have to take any man's word for it.

Edited May 9, 2015 by rodheadlee

[BookofMormonLuvr]

TO BE CLEAR:

I never at any point put Denver Snuffer in the same league as Alma. I was addressing the "must come in at the gate" comment. Samuel was an outsider to the religious Zarahemlite community, as was Abiniadi to the city of Nephi, and Lehi in Jerusalem.

My only point: God will choose whom He chooses. I never indicated Denver as being that person. 

Edit: I will examine the finer points of your post later.

Edited May 9, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[rodheadlee]

TO BE CLEAR:

I never at any point put Denver Snuffer in the same league as Alma. I was addressing the "must come in at the gate" comment. Samuel was an outsider to the religious Zarahemlite community, as was Abiniadi to the city of Nephi, and Lehi in Jerusalem.

My only point: God will choose whom He chooses. I never indicated Denver as being that person. 

Edit: I will examine the finer points of your post later.

My main point is Denver Snuffer is no Samuel. Take your time answering, I injured my hands this week and I don't really care to type much.

[Avatar4321]

No. He isn't a Samuel the lamanite type. More like a nehor type.

[ERayR]

My main point is Denver Snuffer is no Samuel. Take your time answering, I injured my hands this week and I don't really care to type much.

 

Bummer Rod.  Hope you have a quick recovery.

[rodheadlee]

Thanks ErayR, I need them to do my job.

[The Nehor]

No. He isn't a Samuel the lamanite type. More like a nehor type.

 

I resent that.

[Seeker59]

What do you make of this?

 

 

Tausha Larsen

May 20, 2015 at 10:31 am

I have been filled with the Holy Ghost since the retreat. My body is burning from head to foot. It leaves at times, but as soon as I turn my focus back to Christ, I am filled again. I know this is the physical effects of the Holy Ghost. The last time I experienced this was after Denver’s eight and ninth lectures. It lasted for about 2 weeks. Then life and the world took over again, and I lost some of my connection with heaven.

Praise be to God for speaking to Bret and to organize this retreat. I had an entire weekend filled with association with the most loving and Christ like people I have ever known. You all give me greater desire to rise up and become more like Christ, so I can be with you all in Zion.

Thank you Tim for your comments and for providing a forum for us to leave our thoughts and feelings about the retreat. I appreciate your blog so much.

I was commenting to my husband Adrian yesterday that I am so glad that we brought our children to the retreat. It was so good for them to realize that there are other children in this movement besides our good friends in Boise. They experienced the talks, the love, the unity, the testimonies, the sacrament, and a group of believers getting together to come to Christ and praise the Lord. There is something about meeting together that is powerful. I am so pleased they were part of it.

There were many beautiful souls in attendance. I’m so glad to have met and associated with you. May God be with us til we meet again!

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/05/18/a-report-from-the-grand-mesa-retreat/#comments

[Seeker59]

If these people are deceived, why is God allowing them to be so deceived?

[Brian 2.0]

What do you make of this?

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/05/18/a-report-from-the-grand-mesa-retreat/#comments

That pesky 'ol Holy Ghost. Always witnessing different truths depending on who he's talking to.

[JLHPROF]

If these people are deceived, why is God allowing them to be so deceived?

 

Because despite what we sometimes tell each other, God expects us to use our brains as well as our spirits.

Warm fuzzies do not a truth make.

 

Oh, and Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Ghost has NO EFFECT but pure intelligence.

Edited May 27, 2015 by JLHPROF

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Because despite what we sometimes tell each other, God expects us to use our brains as well as our spirits.

Warm fuzzies do not a truth make.

 

Oh, and Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Ghost has NO EFFECT but pure intelligence.

What exactly are the gifts & fruits of the Spirit than exactly?

[JLHPROF]

What exactly are the gifts & fruits of the Spirit than exactly?

 

Something else entirely - related to, but not the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Carrying the spirit of the Lord can provide many different gifts - tongues, healing, faith etc

. 

The First Comforter/Gift of the Holy Ghost is a revelator, and according to the prophet specifically provides knowledge.

 

 

The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence;

 

The Spirit of Revelation is in connection with these blessings. A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.,) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.

 

and of course

 

D&C 8

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

[Gray]

Something else entirely - related to, but not the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Carrying the spirit of the Lord can provide many different gifts - tongues, healing, faith etc

. 

The First Comforter/Gift of the Holy Ghost is a revelator, and according to the prophet specifically provides knowledge.

 

 

and of course

 

This isn't the message that investigators and the youth are getting regards to identifying the Holy Ghost. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This isn't the message that investigators and the youth are getting regards to identifying the Holy Ghost. 

Exactly, the fruits are what they are told to look for. So why should those at the gathering doubt if they feel they are feeling the fruits of the Spirit, which they have been told to look for from the beginning?

[Brian 2.0]

What's the difference between the spiritual experiences of those at the Snuffer retreat and those at a testimony meeting at an LDS chapel?  If you ask the people involved they'd probably say almost the same things as each other and identify those feelings as the spirit confirming to them the truth of the words being spoken.  

[JLHPROF]

This isn't the message that investigators and the youth are getting regards to identifying the Holy Ghost. 

 

Exactly, the fruits are what they are told to look for. So why should those at the gathering doubt if they feel they are feeling the fruits of the Spirit, which they have been told to look for from the beginning?

 

What's the difference between the spiritual experiences of those at the Snuffer retreat and those at a testimony meeting at an LDS chapel?  If you ask the people involved they'd probably say almost the same things as each other and identify those feelings as the spirit confirming to them the truth of the words being spoken.  

 

Which is exactly why I posted what I did concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost and using our minds.

There is more to testimony than what makes your spirit feel all warm and cozy.  Or at least there should be.

[Brian 2.0]

Which is exactly why I posted what I did concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost and using our minds.

There is more to testimony than what makes your spirit feel all warm and cozy. Or at least there should be.

Are you saying the Snuffer people aren't using their minds? I'm sure it makes sense to them in their hearts and their minds.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Which is exactly why I posted what I did concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost and using our minds.

There is more to testimony than what makes your spirit feel all warm and cozy.  Or at least there should be.

I agree.

So we should be like the Bareans and search the scriptures to find out if something is so?

[Jeanne]

Because despite what we sometimes tell each other, God expects us to use our brains as well as our spirits.

Warm fuzzies do not a truth make.

 

Oh, and Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Ghost has NO EFFECT but pure intelligence.

Then it okay for me not to always believe the people who say they KNOW the church is true.the Spirit told them it was true.

[JLHPROF]

I agree.

So we should be like the Bareans and search the scriptures to find out if something is so?

 

We study things out in our mind first and then ask God.  Scriptures are fully clear on this principle.

 

The fuzzy part is understanding the response.  Joseph's teachings on how to recognize the Holy Ghost are also moderately clear, but that is always going to be a challenge for us mere mortals.

[JLHPROF]

Then it okay for me not to always believe the people who say they KNOW the church is true.the Spirit told them it was true.

 

It's ok for anyone to believe or disbelieve anything they like.

We all have the right to be wrong or right on any issue.

 

There is nothing wrong with a spiritual testimony.  It's actually a requirement.  But so is studying things out.

I'll quote Joseph again - The Holy Ghost has NO EFFECT other than pure intelligence.

 

If the Holy Ghost has told them it is true who am I to doubt them?

[ERayR]

Then it okay for me not to always believe the people who say they KNOW the church is true.the Spirit told them it was true.

 

You can believe what you want and you have no way of knowing one way or the other.  I sometimes cringe at that statement myself but then I realize they are conflating the Church with the gospel, the framework with the message, the body with the spirit and that is alright too.

[JLHPROF]

You can believe what you want and you have no way of knowing one way or the other.  I sometimes cringe at that statement myself but then I realize they are conflating the Church with the gospel, the framework with the message, the body with the spirit and that is alright too.

 

SO true.  In my experience many who claim "The Church is true!" have never even thought about what they mean by that phrase.

Do they mean it is God's church established by him?  Do they mean it has the priesthood authority?  Does it mean the doctrines are all true?  Does it mean all of these and more?

 

I don't object to the phrase, but I do object to its overuse without thought.

[toon]

For the longest time, I thought Denver Snuffer was some pseudonym, as in, "Beware the Denver Snuffer."  Don't have the slightest idea what it would mean, though.