Land Purchases

[Avatar4321]

If you haven't read the history of what took place in the late 1830's between the Mormons and the Missourians from the Missourian's point of view and records, it's an interesting read.  That is probably why some who live in Missouri are not excited about Mormons buying up land there.

so guilt? They aren't responsible for the deplorable actions of those who came before them.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

so guilt? They aren't responsible for the deplorable actions of those who came before them.

There were deplorable actions on both sides.

Just as a general reminder- https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

[Sleeper Cell]

No - but I recieved some interesting phone calls in the wee hours of the morning about loved ones who were in jail and mistakenly got my number when he was Jackson County prosecutor - not to mention inadvertant emails from circuit judges when he became county executive. Politically we're on opposite sides of the isle.

The other Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

 

When I was in school, a new pizza place was assigned a phone number nearly identical to  mine (off by one digit).  Even worse, they took phone orders and delivered until 2:00 in the morning.  When I complained, the pizza place and the phone company essentially told me to pound sand.  Eventually, the phone company offered to change my number -- for a fee -- even though I had my number a year before the pizza place opened. 

 

So I started taking orders. Somehow, I suspect that “my” customers were not overly happy with the service they received -- especially since the pizza place advertised that they would deliver within a half hour or the pizza would be free.

 

Since you and the other Mike Sanders are on opposite sides of the political aisle …     

[Robert F. Smith]

A "lot" of land is relative. It's not a lot compared to Utah, but it is a lot when compared to Kansas or New Zealand. Like others have said, to my knowledge the church owns signigicant land at AOA, Far West and Independence, as well as Liberty (temple & residential development around the temple), Hawn Mill (recently purchased from Community of Christ) etc. I don't see these as massive purchases but non-mormon locals certainly view them with a little bit of trepidation. Many locals are fearful of a Mormon comeback and sometimes get quite defensive about it.

You are quite right, and there is some basis for that fear:  I know of Utah Mormons who have moved to Missouri specifically due to those prophetic beliefs.  One of them is a cousin of mine.  I myself lived in Independence, MO, for seven years.

[Robert F. Smith]

Why?

At one time, there was a very strong hatred for the dreaded "Utah Mormons" among RLDS members (now CoC).  This has only heightened with the astonishing growth of the LDS Church and the concomitant land purchases and building.  Some RLDS members have also converted to the LDS side.  Fear and loathing.

[Robert F. Smith]

They really should not worry. I believe the general consensus is that the unbelievers will all be dead by some means before the LDS return in large numbers.

Or maybe that the Rapture will have happened and no one will be there to greet them?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

At one time, there was a very strong hatred for the dreaded "Utah Mormons" among RLDS members (now CoC).  This has only heightened with the astonishing growth of the LDS Church and the concomitant land purchases and building.  Some RLDS members have also converted to the LDS side.  Fear and loathing.

Being associated with said groups, I can assure you that is patently untrue. The Branch I attend just had several BYU professors, including Bob Millet, and their spouses occupy our SS and preaching hour to give the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, after sharing a wonderful weekend celebrating the Book of Mormon in unity.

The traditional walls of separation and animosity between "Josephite" and "Brighamite" are crumbling. 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Being associated with said groups, I can assure you that is patently untrue. The Branch I attend just had several BYU professors, including Bob Millet, and their spouses occupy our SS and preaching hour to give the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, after sharing a wonderful weekend celebrating the Book of Mormon in unity.

The traditional walls of separation and animosity between "Josephite" and "Brighamite" are crumbling.

 

They may be crumbling slowly but there is still significant distrust amongst CoC, Restoration branches and LDS. I've never seen animosity but I have been witness to fear that LDS will try to convert their families. There has been significant outreach in my area from LDS to the other restoration groups and that outreach is generally met with apprehension and very little participation.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

 

 

They may be crumbling slowly but there is still significant distrust amongst CoC, Restoration branches and LDS. I've never seen animosity but I have been witness to fear that LDS will try to convert their families. There has been significant outreach in my area from LDS to the other restoration groups and that outreach is generally met with apprehension and very little participation.

But the key is: they are crumbling. 

Sure we have 150 so years of animosity to overcome, so it won't happen overnight. But the more of us who can realize we are not enemies and reach out desiring to rekindle the fellowship that was lost so many years ago, the faster it can happen.

I was led to write this a few weeks back on FB:

 

"A Parable of the Latter Day Church:

 

There was a huge family reunion at a vast campground with multiple entrances. Each part of the family came in through a different entrance and set up camp. Each thinking that they had the whole campground reserved they each grow perturbed that the "other" families where there on the grounds, not realizing that they were all invited to the same family reunion. They even told their children to not play at the playground with the kids from the "other" families.

 

Eventually some kids from each part of the family wandered over to the playground, and starting playing with each other. As they played and talked they realized that they were all cousins and that the adults were confused not knowing they were all supposed to be at the same reunion. When a few excitedly went to tell their "own" families of the joy of meeting the other kids and finding out they were all one family, they were met with skepticism and even scorn. The children lamented because the end of the reunion was arriving- how much time they could spent playing and making friends had they only wandered over to the playground earlier!

 

Come to the playground."

Edited May 1, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[randyj]

I have lived in Independence Mo. my entire 58yrs.  I can tell you with certainty that the Church is continually looking for and adding to it's land accuistions here and in the land "round abouts".   Back in the 80's the church made "significant" purchases of land just north of river along 210 highway.  Our Bishop's storehouse is located there on "Kimball Dr."  I know for a fact that during that time a former Indep. Mo. Mission President was called to be a "special liason" to the FP with respect to all things "Indep. Liberty, Far West, AOA etc.   Whether or not there is still someone called to this position I do not know, but I would suspect so.   The Church is accomplishing ALOT under the radar...which is exactly how it should be at this stage of the game. In my opinion.

 

Regarding relationships with the various Restoration groups..COC, Remnant, Restoration branches etc....I believe things have improved significantly over the past decade.  My own observation has been that the Remnant Church and the Restoration Branches are to involved with their own rivalry....that honestly....the LDS church doesn't factor into their thoughts much....at least not like it did back in the day of "Joseph good, Brigham bad".

 

Just my thoughts from the Center Stake!!

Edited May 1, 2015 by randyj

[randyj]

Robert,  when did you live in Indep?  What Ward were you in?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Another experience showing the LORD is trying to help us to reengage each other for the hope of Zion:
 

"An experience shared by brother Ed C.:

"This is an Email I wrote to Brother Patrick last Sunday after I spoke at Decatur. The body of the Email gives the account of my experience
Thanks all
ed

Brother Patrick:

I have NOT been able to do very much since moving from Lamoni to Urbandale, Iowa in 2009. Health issues aboud for both my wife Jean and myself it seems YET, I have been able to make it to Decatur every other month to speak and Brother Dave has asked me for assistance with Mt Pleasant and Keosauqua on several occasions. And, today, March 22, I had a speaking assignment in Decatur, so I do get out and about as time and health permits.

Last Sunday was quite emotional for me. I knew about the Book of Mormon event on Saturday. Then, on Sunday I watched the Zarahemla Ustream event of Testimonies. I certainly was paying attention BUT, as the lady began to sing the Hymn, "Whose Children Are These" I began to weep. Something was happening. Then, during her singing the second song, "Won't It Be Something To See Israel Smile" I completely lost it emotionally.

Sister Tara managed to send me the "Sing Glory" Hymn as well as the "Won't It be Something" Hymn. I did manage to get the words and music of the "Israel Smile" Hymn. Then, Sister Joy Muir managed to get me both words and music of the "Whose Children" Hymn. I had the pianist play that Hymn in Church this morning, March 22, as I emotionally read the words. Then, to close out my speaking I read the words to the "Won't It be Something" Hymn and broke down several times.
Your service on Sunday a week ago was Spirit filled for me and terribly emotional as I fought to keep my eyes dry and hearing attuned to the service. For that I am greatful. Thanks.

You should know though I had been preparing for the Decatur assignment since returning from Keosauqua 2 weeks earlier AND, I came close to losing it one more time as you stood and read your call to worship from 1 Nephi, Chapter 7, verses 21-26. How could this be? That was the VERY Scripture I had chosen in my preparation. As a matter of fact, part of my presentation was also Isaiah 49: 21-23 where Isaiah asked the question, "whose Children Are These?"

But, that is really NOT the main reason I type this out today, Sunday afternoon, tired and still emotional from this morning. What causes me to type this is the events I experienced asa young lad of maybe 2 or 3 years of age. I feel sure I was not in school at that time. (My mother is now gone and I can only guess.)
Many years ago, prior to my parents getting a divorce, we were living just West of where you live only my home was at 43rd and Indiana in Kansas City. My parents would take me to church in Kansas City, the Congregation I know not. Since the Street car line ended at 43rd and Indiana, my mindcontinues to tell me the church was located west and south of where we then lived.

Mom told me there was a time when, as this young lad of maybe age 3 or 4, I had a 3 day experience while laying on the bed, knees drawn up and one leg crossed over the other leg. She said all of a sudden I began to carry on a conversation much like an adult only I could barely talk at the time. After listening to me carry on the conversation or conversations she began to question me. "Who are you talking to?" "Where are you at?" "What kind of a place is it?" On and on my mother would ask me and each and every time I would reply; "I am talking to the Angels", "It is a pretty place" "I am in Heaven". After three days these conversations ended and like any very young lad I continued to be and do what a young boy would do.

Quite frankly I seem to have forgotten these conversations for many years. Then one day, just prior to mom dying in May 2012, I began to have times when I would seemingly have what I call a FLASHBACK where I know & understand events taking place. By this time I was age 71.

Last Sunday I all of a sudden recalled the words to the "Whose Children Are These" and "Won't it be Something To See Israel Smile". I had heard these Hymns before. As a matter of fact, I had sung these Hymns before. I had heard and sung them during my young age during those 3 days while carrying on those conversations. Yet, as soon as the Hymns ended I could not recall one word YET, in those few minutes I knew them, I knew those words, I had been there before. I had heard them sung by those Angels I was talking to and with as a wee young lad."

*******************

Chris writing: If you don't know the history of the songs being referred to, here is a brief background:

A sister in the Church of Jesus Christ (Rigdon/Bickerton) many years ago (1970's) began receiving songs through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. This sister is not a poetess, and is not a musician. But she was given every word and every note. Eventually, a brother in the Church was inspired to contact her. This brother is very musical, and it was made known that he was to help her get the songs written down. So she would hum the tune and he would discern the notes. Over 200 songs have been received this way.

Brother Ed was not raised in, and is not a member of, the Church of Jesus Christ (Rigdon/Bickerton) and at the time of his angel visits at age 3, the sister had not yet received any of the songs- so it would've been impossible for him to have heard them from any earthly source.

To sum it all up: Imagine a little RLDS boy singing songs with angels before they were ever written by a sister in different Book of Mormon believing church, and remembering the songs years later as he hears them sung on a video feed of a service in which a Restoration Branch is letting LDS brothers and sisters bear their testimony of the Book of Mormon! 

Can you really believe Elohim (God) is not in this?!? May His name be forever praised!!"

 

[Avatar4321]

But the key is: they are crumbling. 

Sure we have 150 so years of animosity to overcome, so it won't happen overnight. But the more of us who can realize we are not enemies and reach out desiring to rekindle the fellowship that was lost so many years ago, the faster it can happen.

I was led to write this a few weeks back on FB:

 

"A Parable of the Latter Day Church:

 

There was a huge family reunion at a vast campground with multiple entrances. Each part of the family came in through a different entrance and set up camp. Each thinking that they had the whole campground reserved they each grow perturbed that the "other" families where there on the grounds, not realizing that they were all invited to the same family reunion. They even told their children to not play at the playground with the kids from the "other" families.

 

Eventually some kids from each part of the family wandered over to the playground, and starting playing with each other. As they played and talked they realized that they were all cousins and that the adults were confused not knowing they were all supposed to be at the same reunion. When a few excitedly went to tell their "own" families of the joy of meeting the other kids and finding out they were all one family, they were met with skepticism and even scorn. The children lamented because the end of the reunion was arriving- how much time they could spent playing and making friends had they only wandered over to the playground earlier!

 

Come to the playground."

I don't have any animosity towards you. I can't name a single member of the church who does.

the flds, yeah I could find some people with animosity. None with the CoC or other groups out there.

[JAHS]

I was talking to the director of the LDS visitor's center in Independence,MO many years ago and he said even though the  Church of Christ (Temple Lot) owns the lot of ground that is supposed to be where the temple will be built,  that Joseph Smith did not just dedicate that small piece of land for the temple; the dedication included much of the land in that general area; parts of which the church already owns.  So he was saying the Temple doesn't have to be built on that specific piece of land.

Edited May 2, 2015 by JAHS

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert,  when did you live in Indep?  What Ward were you in?

I lived there from about 1976-1983.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I was talking to the director of the LDS visitor's center in Independence,MO many years ago and he said even though the  Church of Christ (Temple Lot) owns the lot of ground that is supposed to be where the temple will be built,  that Joseph Smith did not just dedicate that small piece of land for the temple; the dedication included much of the land in that general area; parts of which the church already owns.  So he was saying the Temple doesn't have to be built on that specific piece of land.

Yet, as the Apostle who has regularly hosted groups of Mormons at the Temple Lot Church always points out, actual corner-stones were laid by Joseph and those stones yet exist at the Temple Lot Church.

 

Both Jews and Mormons are in the same boat:  A different group controls their main temple site.  However, the Jews know that one day they will again control that site.  They have great faith.

[JAHS]

Yet, as the Apostle who has regularly hosted groups of Mormons at the Temple Lot Church always points out, actual corner-stones were laid by Joseph and those stones yet exist at the Temple Lot Church.

 

Both Jews and Mormons are in the same boat:  A different group controls their main temple site.  However, the Jews know that one day they will again control that site.  They have great faith.

I wonder, did Joseph say he received by revelation exactly where the temple would be built or did he just choose what looked like a good spot on the ground he dedicated and put the corner stones there?

Edited May 2, 2015 by JAHS

[Sevenbak]

Joseph also laid out plans for 24 seperate Temples in Independence, so the significance of the temple lot and individual corner stones is not that huge imho.

[hagoth7]

Joseph also laid out plans for 24 seperate Temples in Independence, so the significance of the temple lot and individual corner stones is not that huge imho.

I've heard that said (online) several times, but in all my reading of early history I have never come across any source that mentions this. Do you have a source for this please?

 

(Much appreciated.)

[ALarson]

I've heard that said (online) several times, but in all my reading of early history I have never come across any source that mentions this. Do you have a source for this please?

 

Here's a couple of links that discuss it (this first link is to the Joseph Smith papers where the names of the 24 temples are given):

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/names-of-the-temples-in-zion-24-june-1833?p

 

This link explains Joseph Smith's plans for the temples (he released them in June, 1833).  Scroll down to where it states, "Location of the 'Center Place'":

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_newjerusalem.htm

 

Quote from the 2nd link:

For the next two years, Independence, Jackson County, was a focal point of the Saints' activity. Interest grew when, in June of 1833, Joseph Smith released his plan for the city of Zion (Figure 2). At the center of the mile-square city, he envisioned two large blocks containing 24 sacred "temples." These were to be assigned to the various priesthood quorums and were to serve a variety of functions. The Prophet anticipated that the city would have a population of from 15,000 to 20,000 so that these 24 buildings would be needed as "houses of worship, schools, etc."[fn6] Because all inhabitants of the city should be living on a celestial level (D&C 105:5) all these structures could properly be regarded as "temples"-places of communication between heaven and earth-even though their functions were not restricted to ordinance work.

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by ALarson

[JAHS]

Here's a couple of links that discuss it (this first link is to the Joseph Smith papers where the names of the 24 temples are given):

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/names-of-the-temples-in-zion-24-june-1833?p

 

This link explains Joseph Smith's plans for the temples (he released them in June, 1833).  Scroll down to where it states, "Location of the 'Center Place'":

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_newjerusalem.htm

 

Quote from the 2nd link:

 

Although one could conclude that the temple could be built at any one of the dedicated locations of the 24 planned temples. the scriptures seem to be fairly specific as to the location of the main temple:

 

"Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.

And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse." (D&C 57: 2-3)

 

"On the third day of August, I proceeded to dedicate the spot for the Temple, a little west of Independence, and there were also present Sidney Rigdon, Edward Partridge, W. W. Phelps, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Joseph Coe and Newel Knight.

The 87th Psalm was read. The scene was solemn and impressive." (D. H. C., Vol. 1:199.)

 

 

 

 

[Sevenbak]

Here's a couple of links that discuss it (this first link is to the Joseph Smith papers where the names of the 24 temples are given):

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/names-of-the-temples-in-zion-24-june-1833?p

 

This link explains Joseph Smith's plans for the temples (he released them in June, 1833).  Scroll down to where it states, "Location of the 'Center Place'":

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_newjerusalem.htm

 

Quote from the 2nd link:

Thanks, saved me some time!

[Avatar4321]

I believe the visitors center in independence currently sits on one of the 24 dedicated temple locations.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I believe the visitors center in independence currently sits on one of the 24 dedicated temple locations.

 

It's fun to speculate about this stuff. The Visitors Center and the accompanying 10 acres of grass, the Stake Center and the Mission home/Family Services building are all right there and could be repurposed. The CoC temple could possibly be purchased as an administrative temple. Not all temples in the 24 temple complex will be temples as we think of them today. Then of course there are other dedicated temple sites within 1 hour that are also "holy places", like at Far West, Adam ondi Ahman, and then the actual KC temple.

In other words, there's already some significant infrastructure in place.

[randyj]

Yep....and of course for those who have visited the Indep. MO. LDS Visitors Center..may or may have not noticed the large doors located on the main level (south side of bldg.) which on the inside have always been covered by floor to ceiling draperies.  They have never been used. Back in the mid to late 70's I asked the Director and other Senior Missionaries there about this and the thought and general consensus has always been that they were incorporated in the design for use in the future Temple complex.