Opposition And Ridicule

[JLHPROF]

Revelation comes through the still, small voice or by impressions we have. Rarely, if ever, is it the literal, verbal, voice of God dictating exact scripture.

 

God and Nephi had a verbal conversation that is recorded as a verbal communication would be? Really? CFR.

This is how I recall the story.

 

"constrained" by the spirit doesn't sound like the literal voice of God.

The "spirit said" could be interpreted many ways. How many times have you used the rhetorical device of stating something like "the spirit told me to..."? Did you literally hear the voice of God as if telling you the sky is blue?

 

I don't believe for a second that this passage intends to teach us that Nephi had a verbal conversation with God. You are seriously overreaching here.

 

Totally subject to interpretation

 

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

 

Can you definitively CFR that this was NOT verbal?  No you can't.  No more than I can definitively CFR that it wasn't spiritual promptings.

When Nephi says "voice", "words", it really doesn't matter if he heard them by his ears or his heart or his spirit. 

What matters is that these are not referring to impressions or feelings which can be misinterpreted but to literal specific instructions, no matter the method by which they were received.

[HappyJackWagon]

Totally subject to interpretation

 

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

 

Can you definitively CFR that this was NOT verbal?  No you can't.  No more than I can definitively CFR that it wasn't spiritual promptings.

When Nephi says "voice", "words", it really doesn't matter if he heard them by his ears or his heart or his spirit. 

What matters is that these are not referring to impressions or feelings which can be misinterpreted but to literal specific instructions, no matter the method by which they were received.

In these kinds of situations I usually consider the words in the realm of my experience. In my experience I hear people refer to the spirit as if it literally told them something, but they don't really mean that. I also compare it to my personal experience. Have I ever heard a literal voice from the spirit. No. I also consider my personal experience asking one of the Q12 about whether or not they are led by miraculous means, experiences, visitations etc to which the answer was, (paraphrase) "No. We are led by the promptings of the holy ghost just like everyone else."

 

So is it possible that Nephi heard a literal voice from God? I can't prove that he didn't. Of course I can't prove that he really existed either. But the story runs counter to my experiential knowledge. I'm perfectly fine with someone believing that Nephi heard the literal voice of God as long as they are likewise fine with me believing that it didn't happen that way. With those two conflicting views there could be push back from either side in a classroom setting, depending on how it is taught.

[JLHPROF]

Have I ever heard a literal voice from the spirit. No.

 

I have.

[Robert F. Smith]

Because I believe in literal revelation, not just inspired spiritual feelings.

When God says verbally that "the sky is blue" I don't have to interpret that.  Do we really think when God told Nephi to murder Laban that Nephi just "felt" that was what God wanted him to do?  No.  They had a conversation that Nephi put on record.  He was asked to do something that went directly against his conscience.  God told literally told him to do it.  I believe when God speaks to man that he actually speaks to man.  At least sometimes.

Maybe, but then God never told Nephi to "murder" Laban.  The Holy Spirit told him to execute Laban.  Murder is illegal and unrighteous killing, and the Ten Commandments contain an order from God not to "murder."  Justifiable homicide is another matter.

 

As to revelation not requiring an interpreter or intermediary, I think that you are quite wrong.  All humans interpret whatever they receive, revelation or no.  Prophets have always interpreted the mighty acts of God and his revelations as best they can, but always fallibly.

[Stone holm]

Yeah, I am wondering about how well the "God told me to do it", defense would play out today.  Might get you sentenced to life in an insane asylum, but probably not freedom.  Then again not sure how that plays with the religious liberty defense in some States.  Do you have a different version of the Ten Commandments?

[The Nehor]

Yeah, I am wondering about how well the "God told me to do it", defense would play out today.  Might get you sentenced to life in an insane asylum, but probably not freedom.  Then again not sure how that plays with the religious liberty defense in some States.  Do you have a different version of the Ten Commandments?

It would not play out well at all if the command is illegal. This is probably why so many prophets throughout the ages spent time in prisons.

[Robert F. Smith]

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.  Do you have a different version of the Ten Commandments?

As a matter of fact I do:  The Massoretic Hebrew says "You will not murder."  "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation (see Article of Faith #8 ).  Justifiable homicide is permitted.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Stone holm]

It would not play out well at all if the command is illegal. This is probably why so many prophets throughout the ages spent time in prisons.

Yep, wouldn't work with a certain Article of Faith so well either.

[The Nehor]

Yep, wouldn't work with a certain Article of Faith so well either.

 

I have to admit I do not take that Article of Faith that seriously or Section 134 which Joseph Smith had no hand in and was not a revelation.

 

The Latter-Day Saints broke the law when they considered it necessary in the early days of the Church and even defied their own government. I believe that adherence to the law in general is a good thing but when it and religious convictions clash violently I hope I will have the courage to have the divine win out. And no, I do not consider cake baking a violent clash. 

[CV75]

Because I believe in literal revelation, not just inspired spiritual feelings.

When God says verbally that "the sky is blue" I don't have to interpret that.  Do we really think when God told Nephi to murder Laban that Nephi just "felt" that was what God wanted him to do?  No.  They had a conversation that Nephi put on record.  He was asked to do something that went directly against his conscience.  God told literally told him to do it.  I believe when God speaks to man that he actually speaks to man.  At least sometimes.

I think there is human conscience, which is the conditioning you describe, and then there is the Light of Christ, which is a conscience that governs on other levels: more spiritual levels for those things possessing greater intelligence, instinctive levels for those things possessing less intelligence, and on a more controlling level for those things possessing even less intelligence. I think it operates in a one-way (non-negotiating and non-conversational) transaction. I believe the human soul, because it is comprised of spirit and element, has the Light of Christ working with and upon it on all three levels. We comprehend the light, and have instincts, and our bodies and spirits are “separably” connected through a power and determination beyond our own. To various degrees we can control how much of this light we receive and work with, but it isn’t the relationship with Christ (it only leads us to that relationship).

 

So I think Nephi’s conversation, because it was a conversation, was something else, either the Spirit of the Lord or the Holy Ghost.

[Robert F. Smith]

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So I think Nephi’s conversation, because it was a conversation, was something else, either the Spirit of the Lord or the Holy Ghost.

Are these two entities different?

[CV75]

Are these two entities different?

When Spirit of the Lord refers to the Lord’s Spirit (as in the premortal Jesus) and the Holy Ghost refers to the personage described in D&C 130, they are different. I suppose they operate as the same entity as members of the Godhead.

 

From Gospel Topics https://www.lds.org/topics/spirit-of-the-lord?lang=eng, we see that the terms are often used interchangeably: “…the Light of Christ is sometimes called the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Life;” and, “The Holy Ghost… is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.”

 

In my post I was distinguishing between conversations with the premortal Jesus and conversations with the Holy Ghost as intermediary.

 

Nephi (the son of Nephi, who was the son of Helaman) and the brother of Jared had conversations with the premortal Jesus. Joseph Smith’s question and answer sessions seem to have been through the Holy Ghost (whether as an intermediary of his discussion with the Lord or as a serial witness of his questions or proposals to the Lord).Where Nephi reported that he “did obey the voice of the Spirit,” it seems he was conversing with Jesus or through the Holy Ghost and not only interacting with the Light of Christ.