General Conference: Moving Away From Traditional Marriage Definition?

[Gray]

Thank you, sir.

 

And I agree the posting was indeed timely -- just in time for April 1.

 

I was tempted to carry this thing on longer, just to see how many more rep points I could amass, but prudence dictates otherwise.

 

I must commend Gray, Buckeye, SeekingUnderstanding and Daniel2, who easily could have indulged in smugness but instead graciously awarded me rep points or, in the case of Daniel2, paid me a compliment.

 

There were a couple of glaringly suspicious elements. Granted, most people aren't acquainted well enough with the Young Women presidency to have noticed that Cynthia Pratt was an invention, but, to my knowledge, the Young Women general presidency has never had a third counselor.

 

I commend you for this subtle and effective jape! Rep points well deserved

[Gray]

It clashes with the intent of the definition, which is what matters.

 

I'm sure they were imagining male/female pairings when that definition was made, yes. 

[Scott Lloyd]

That is from 1999, any similarities might be a result of reading the Proc.

Furthermore, Elder Oaks is an honorary member of the congress's board of directors. He may have influenced the wording in both documents.

 

By the way, when the Southern Poverty Law Center brands something as a hate organization, I'm inclined to consider the source of the branding.

 

Here is a link to the home page of the World Congress of Families. Let individual readers take a look and decide for themselves whether it is a hate group.

 

Here is a link to a Q and A document that directly addresses that accusation.

 

I particularly like this passage:

 

Question: Why do anti-family militants call WCF “hateful” for defending the natural family and opposing their agenda?

 

Answer: It’s a political weapon – a way to stigmatize family advocates and silence dissent.

Opposing anything sexual radicals support, or supporting anything they oppose, is automatically called hateful. Thus, opposing “gay marriage” is hateful; opposing abortion is hateful; opposing hate crimes laws which stifle free speech is hateful; defending the Boy Scouts is hateful; pointing out the dangers of public-school indoctrination is hateful; opposing language-corruption (ex: changing husband and wife to spouse # 1 and spouse #2 on government documents) is hateful; noting that sexually transmitted disease is rampant among homosexuals is hateful (which in turn makes the Centers for Disease Control hateful for documenting the phenomenon); opposing bathrooms and showers that are open to both sexes (to accommodate the gender-confused) is hateful … the list is seemingly endless and growing all the time.

From the perspective of our critics, is there anyone who opposes same-sex “marriage” who isn’t “hateful”?

Irresponsible and unfounded charges of malice are part of a deliberate strategy to avoid any discussion of issues on which there are legitimate differences of opinion.

 

Is it only a matter of time before the SPLC begins to brand the Church of Jesus Christ as a hate group?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

Just for accuracy's sake, after the word 'wife' there is a comma that is followed by these words: "it includes a partnership with God."

I did state that the quote was carefully parsed. Only for effect, of course.

[Ham Clam]

Is it only a matter of time before the SPLC begins to brand the Church of Jesus Christ as a hate group?

One of the board members for Affirmation: LGBT Mormons is a founder of/lawyer at the SPLC, Sam Wolfe. I don't think they will label us, honestly. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ham Clam

[Tacenda]

Furthermore, Elder Oaks is an honorary member of the congress's board of directors. He may have influenced the wording in both documents.

By the way, when the Southern Poverty Law Center brands something as a hate organization, I'm inclined to consider the source of the branding.

Here is a link to the home page of the World Congress of Families. Let individual readers take a look and decide for themselves whether it is a hate group.

Here is a link to a Q and A document that directly addresses that accusation.

I particularly like this passage:

Is it only a matter of time before the SPLC begins to brand the Church of Jesus Christ as a hate group?

I know that past prophets/leaders may have ignited the hate. I read some quotes just yesterday, flabbergasted! I had no idea our leaders said these horrific things. They went beyond hate, if these quotes are real. Or it feels worse than hate when people think gays who act on it should be wiped off the face of the earth. There are these below and many more. I read them on a forum and there are plenty on the site below:

http://www.nomorestrangers.org/timeline-of-mormon-thinking-about-homosexuality/

George Q. Cannon, 1st Counselor in First Presidency

October 1897, Report of the 68th Semiannual General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 65-66

How can this be stopped? Not while those who have knowledge of these filthy crimes exist. The only way, according to all that I can understand as the word of God, is for the Lord to wipe them out, that there will be none left to perpetuate the knowledge of these dreadful practices among the children of men. And God will do it, as sure as He has spoken by the mouths of His prophets."

Spencer W. Kimball, Acting Presiding Apostle

Delivered April 3, 1971, "Voices of the Past, of the Present, of the Future, Ensign, June 1971, p. 16

"There are said to be millions of perverts who have relinquished their natural affection and bypassed courtship and normal marriage relationships. This practice is spreading like a prairie fire and changing our world. They are without ‘natural affection' for God, for spouses, and even for children."

Spencer W. Kimball, Church President

October 1980, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality", Ensign, November 1980, p. 97

"'God made me that way,' some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves for their [homosexual] perversions. ‘I can't help it,' they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be ‘that way'?"

Edited April 3, 2015 by Tacenda

[Nofear]

Whatever past missteps may have occurred, this is the current hateful rhetoric from the Church:

 

"Surely we can teach our children values and standards of behavior without having them distance themselves or show disrespect to any who are different. We challenge all youth to avoid bullying, insults or language and practices that deliberately inflict pain on others. All of these violate the Savior's command to love one another." - Elder Oaks

[Scott Lloyd]

Whatever past missteps may have occurred, this is the current hateful rhetoric from the Church:

 

"Surely we can teach our children values and standards of behavior without having them distance themselves or show disrespect to any who are different. We challenge all youth to avoid bullying, insults or language and practices that deliberately inflict pain on others. All of these violate the Savior's command to love one another." - Elder Oaks

I believe President Kimball and Elder Oaks would actually be in agreement with each other.

 

Which demonstrates the folly of out-of-context quotation.

[Scott Lloyd]

One of the board members for Affirmation: LGBT Mormons is a founder of/lawyer at the SPLC, Sam Wolfe. I don't think they will label us, honestly. 

I hope not.

 

But historically at least, I haven't seen Affirmation as being any great friend of the Church.

[jwhitlock]

They went beyond hate, if these quotes are real. 

 

Gets my vote for the best example on this thread of emotional hype whose only purpose is to demonize those who don't support homosexual behavior.

 

Would fit right in with the mob attacking Memories Pizza. Judgement without substance.

[Tacenda]

Gets my vote for the best example on this thread of emotional hype whose only purpose is to demonize those who don't support homosexual behavior.

Would fit right in with the mob attacking Memories Pizza. Judgement without substance.

Yay, I finally win in something!

But you happen to be wrong. I would have to demonize many close friends and family. I'm only demonizing some thought processes. But you are right about my poor wordage. I'll edit for sure.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Tacenda

[jwhitlock]

Yay, I finally win in something!

But you happen to be wrong. I would have to demonize many close friends and family. I'm only demonizing some thought processes.

 

I am curious, however. What is "beyond hate"?  Is there some kind of synonym for it? Can you describe dispassionately what it is, and how those cherry picked quotes of yours are "beyond hate"?

 

I confess that I'm having trouble imagining what would be "beyond hate". Perhaps you can give us some real world examples.

[Tacenda]

I am curious, however. What is "beyond hate"? Is there some kind of synonym for it? Can you describe dispassionately what it is, and how those cherry picked quotes of yours are "beyond hate"?

I confess that I'm having trouble imagining what would be "beyond hate". Perhaps you can give us some real world examples.

Did you see my edit to my post? I'm going to change some wording.

In answer to your question, beyond hate to me means worse than just hate. When some thought that gays should be wiped out, that's beyond hate.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Tacenda

[jwhitlock]

Did you see my edit to my post? I'm going to change some wording.

In answer to your question, beyond hate to me means worse than just hate. When some thought that gays should be wiped out, that's beyond hate.

 

So would you say that what happened to Memories Pizza is "beyond hate"?

[Tacenda]

So would you say that what happened to Memories Pizza is "beyond hate"?

No, are they saying to wipe out gays?

[jwhitlock]

No, are they saying to wipe out gays?

 

No they aren't. But gay supporters certainly have tried to wipe out Memories Pizza. Evidently, though, since it's not happening to gays it's not "beyond hate".

 

I didn't find anything in your quotes that indicated church leaders told us to wipe out gays. Maybe you can clarify that.

 

And I still don't know what "beyond hate" is. Since there are plenty of examples where garden variety hate has resulted in people dying, being tortured, wars, etc., I'm having trouble understanding why your claimed "wiping out gays" is "beyond hate", and not just regular old hate. And I'm trying to understand why you're so willing to pull quotes out of context and then claim church leaders are "beyond hate", when there are plenty of clarifying quotes (as noted in this thread) that show what the church's true position is.

 

You certainly haven't edited your original quote and are still accusing church leaders of being "beyond hate". Can you come up with a clear description, rather than something contrived and subjective about gays, that defines "beyond hate"?

[Tacenda]

No they aren't. But gay supporters certainly have tried to wipe out Memories Pizza. Evidently, though, since it's not happening to gays it's not "beyond hate".

I didn't find anything in your quotes that indicated church leaders told us to wipe out gays. Maybe you can clarify that.

And I still don't know what "beyond hate" is. Since there are plenty of examples where garden variety hate has resulted in people dying, being tortured, wars, etc., I'm having trouble understanding why your claimed "wiping out gays" is "beyond hate", and not just regular old hate. And I'm trying to understand why you're so willing to pull quotes out of context and then claim church leaders are "beyond hate", when there are plenty of clarifying quotes (as noted in this thread) that show what the church's true position is.

You certainly haven't edited your original quote and are still accusing church leaders of being "beyond hate". Can you come up with a clear description, rather than something contrived and subjective about gays, that defines "beyond hate"?

I did edit, but should have included an IMO. Also, did you read the quote by George Q. Cannon?

And I understand that the early leaders were in the dark that gays can be born homosexual. Luckily the current leaders see that it is a possibility.

[Bobbieaware]

No they aren't. But gay supporters certainly have tried to wipe out Memories Pizza. Evidently, though, since it's not happening to gays it's not "beyond hate".

I didn't find anything in your quotes that indicated church leaders told us to wipe out gays. Maybe you can clarify that.

And I still don't know what "beyond hate" is. Since there are plenty of examples where garden variety hate has resulted in people dying, being tortured, wars, etc., I'm having trouble understanding why your claimed "wiping out gays" is "beyond hate", and not just regular old hate. And I'm trying to understand why you're so willing to pull quotes out of context and then claim church leaders are "beyond hate", when there are plenty of clarifying quotes (as noted in this thread) that show what the church's true position is.

You certainly haven't edited your original quote and are still accusing church leaders of being "beyond hate". Can you come up with a clear description, rather than something contrived and subjective about gays, that defines "beyond hate"?

Why would one want to quote the general authorities in context and with clarifying quotes when the primary goal is to place the leaders of the church in as negative a light as possible? Fair-minded objectivity and critisism of the church leaders have never been compatible companions.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Tacenda]

Why would one want to quote the general authorities in context and with clarifying quotes when the primary goal is to place the leaders of the church in as negative a light as possible? Fair-minded objectivity and critisism of the church leaders have never been compatible companions.

Please note how it's out of context. And if Pres. Uchtdorf can say some leaders made mistakes why can't I have that opinion? We need reminders (quotes) of what not to say or do.

[Daniel2]

No they aren't. But gay supporters certainly have tried to wipe out Memories Pizza.

Huh....?!?!!?

CFR.

From what I've read, this pizza place was on the offensive, and proactively (in an interview) wanted to go on the record by saying they wouldn't serve gays--but it wasn't in response to any actual denial of services to an actual gay couple that was refused--it was a manufactured, hypothetical scenario designed by Right Wingers to drum up outrage. Thr media has since drummed up a lot of attention about their statement.

In short, the pizza place was all talk to try to be a martyr, and they've subsequently received a lot of sympathy (without ever actually having been threatened by actual gay customers), and they're likely laughing all the way to the bank with their million dollar online fundraiser.

[jwhitlock]

Huh....?!?!!?

CFR.

From what I've read, this pizza place was on the offensive, and proactively (in an interview) wanted to go on the record by saying they wouldn't serve gays--but it wasn't in response to any actual denial of services to an actual gay couple that was refused--it was a manufactured, hypothetical scenario designed by Right Wingers to drum up outrage. Thr media has since drummed up a lot of attention about their statement.

In short, the pizza place was all talk to try to be a martyr, and they've subsequently received a lot of sympathy (without ever actually having been threatened by actual gay customers), and they're likely laughing all the way to the bank with their million dollar online fundraiser.

 

You need to read what actually happened, instead of hate-mongering sites.

 

They weren't "proactive". A South Bend station sent a reporter out trolling for someone to demonize as part of the Indiana law uproar and found an obviously Christian pizza shop owner. She asked them a number of leading questions, including:

 

"Would you serve gays?"  The owner answered that they wouldn't have any problem serving gays that came into the shop. Your sites indicating otherwise are lying.

 

"Would you cater a gay wedding?" The owner answered that they wouldn't due to their beliefs. It's worth wondering who in the first place would ask a pizza shop to cater a wedding, but that really didn't matter.

 

That was about the sum of it. The reporter and station editors ran that, sensationalized it a bit, and when the hate started hitting the fan, also reported a biased, one-sided list of hate comments. Nothing sells like sensational stories, doesn't it.

 

I've read some of the bigoted hate sites you're referring to. They've claimed that the pizza shop owner was proactive and boasted about it. Those things are false.

 

A high school coach who was part of the pro-gay hate team Tweeted about going down to the small town and burning the pizza shop to the ground. That coach has been suspended (good for someone having some sense to reign the hate in a bit.) Where have we heard about burning things to the ground before? Wasn't it against the church in Prop 8?

 

Pro-gay bigots have tried to destroy Memories Pizza under false pretenses. It's part of the clear ugliness that gay rights supporters engage in. The "other side" does nothing even remotely comparable to what gay rights supporters do. If someone yells anti-gay slogans, it's treated as hate speech and they're prosecuted. If gay rights supporters slander Christians or seek to destroy people like the owners of Memories Pizza an false pretenses, most of them get away with it.

 

I'm grateful for people who have seen through the pro-gay hate and donated in support of Memories Pizza. I'm troubled that you would allow yourself to get sucked in to the fabricated perspective you've posted on this thread.

Edited April 4, 2015 by jwhitlock

[jwhitlock]

I did edit, but should have included an IMO. Also, did you read the quote by George Q. Cannon?

And I understand that the early leaders were in the dark that gays can be born homosexual. Luckily the current leaders see that it is a possibility.

 

No, your original comments still describe what church leaders did as "beyond hate". Those church leaders must have been the absolutely worst, most evil people that have ever lived to be "beyond hate".

 

I still am not sure what kinds of things someone does to be "beyond hate", since most of the terrible things I'm aware of have been done out of simple "hate". You're still not defining what "beyond hate" really is; I suspect that it was just the usual hype that you engage in without evidence when it comes to saying negative things about the church.

 

BTW, Cannon's statement said that the Lord would destroy them - not members of the church. Did you miss that? Is the Lord "beyond hate"? Or do you actually think that the Lord would never destroy wickedness?

 

You're not being particularly forthright about what you really mean by "beyond hate", especially since your original comments still stand.

[jwhitlock]

Please note how it's out of context. And if Pres. Uchtdorf can say some leaders made mistakes why can't I have that opinion? We need reminders (quotes) of what not to say or do.

 

Great rationalization.  But still false.

 

Do you have the opinion that leaders just made mistakes? Or do you really continue to believe that they are "beyond hate"?

[JLHPROF]

 

Pro-gay bigots have tried to destroy Memories Pizza under false pretenses.

 

Well their go-fund-me page raised a grand total of $842,000.

That's easily a years worth of gross sales with zero overhead.

It's probably several years worth of profit.  They can shut down for a while and lose nothing.  They could probably nearly retire, although money doesn't go as far as it used to.

We all should be so destroyed...

[jwhitlock]

Well their go-fund-me page raised a grand total of $842,000.

That's easily a years worth of gross sales with zero overhead.

It's probably several years worth of profit.  They can shut down for a while and lose nothing.  They could probably nearly retire, although money doesn't go as far as it used to.

We all should be so destroyed...

 

It's been a very interesting situation to watch.

 

What's encouraging about it is that pro-gay methodologies demanding the destruction of those who disagree with them aren't always effective - and can backfire, as shown here.