A Strange Question

[Uncle Dale]

Who was the first known person, born in the Americas

who was named or called Timothy?

 

 

UD

(No, it was not Timoteo Cortes Montezuma b. 1527, Tenochtitlan)

[VideoGameJunkie]

The sorcerer from Monty Python Holy Grail went by Tim.

[Uncle Dale]

The sorcerer from Monty Python Holy Grail went by Tim.

 

.

Some say that the Holy Grail is at the bottom of a shaft

dug by Knights Templar on Oak Island, Nova Scotia --

so, you may just be right.

 

UD

[Freedom]

The name appears in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 19:4, but since this book is a translation of an unknown language, we have no idea what his real name sounded like. We also do not know where the original name of Timothy came from. This is impossible to determine. 

[Uncle Dale]

The name appears in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 19:4, but since this book is a translation of an unknown language, we have no idea what his real name sounded like. We also do not know where the original name of Timothy came from. This is impossible to determine. 

 

Looks like you are the first responder with the correct answer.

 

At least there are no other claims in ancient records for such

a person bearing that (or any known very similar name) in

the Americas.

 

Since the name "Jesus" was reportedly communicated to the

ancient Americas by revelation -- and is only known to have

been the name of a single Israelite living in (or visiting) the Land

of Promise, transmission of the name "Timothy" by revelation

would at least be consistent with Book of Mormon doctrine.

 

Correct?

 

UD

Edited March 14, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Freedom]

Or for clarity, the modern vernacular was used to avoid the confusion that the bible produces. 

[Uncle Dale]

Or for clarity, the modern vernacular was used to avoid the confusion that the bible produces. 

 

Another explanation that I've heard convincingly (almost) argued,

is that the complement of Mulek's migratory company remains

unknown. And since he was a prince of the royal family, his relatives

and associates were just the kind of dignitaries who in those days

married foreigners, to solidify alliances, trade agreements, etc.

 

Thus, "Timothy" may have been a name carried down by a member

of the royal court who had an arranged marriage with a Macedonian,

or even a Neo-Babylonian, in whose family that name was used.

 

Also possible?

 

UD

Edited March 14, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Freedom]

In the end, we know so little the the translation process and name origins that it is impossible to tell. We know of three groups but there could have been more. The name Timothy have have arrived close to this persons time frame. 

[Uncle Dale]

 

...We know of three groups but there could have been more...

 

.

I asked a friend -- who did not know. But he said he'd ask another

friend and get back to me.

 

A partial quote from today's e-mail:

 

>...most likely explanation is that the 3rd Nephi name [Timothy]

>was Joseph Smith's attempt to transliterate a Jaredite name

>coming from the original [Adamic] language...

>

>...the remarkable thing would be that the corrupt Greek

>retained enough of the original language that its speakers

>still used a name like Timotheos, ages after the flood.

>Compare the Lamanite teo (probably Jaredite) with the

>corrupted Greek word theos...

 

etc. etc.

 

I'm not sure I understood all of that myself. But my friend's

friend went on to list a bunch of Jaredite names and words

that were still in use among the Lamanites and Nephites

at the time the golden plates narrative was being finalized.

 

Has anybody else written about a Lamanite word for God

that was pronounced "teo" ???

 

UD

[Sevenbak]

Another explanation that I've heard convincingly (almost) argued,

is that the complement of Mulek's migratory company remains

unknown. And since he was a prince of the royal family, his relatives

and associates were just the kind of dignitaries who in those days

married foreigners, to solidify alliances, trade agreements, etc.

 

Thus, "Timothy" may have been a name carried down by a member

of the royal court who had an arranged marriage with a Macedonian,

or even a Neo-Babylonian, in whose family that name was used.

 

Also possible?

 

UD

Both Timothy and Lachoneus (Chief Judge at the birth of Christ) are Greek in origin.    I don't think anyone assumes that Mulek came over by himself.  He was a prince of Israel and would likely have hired the best seafarers of his day, including those you mentioned, the Greeks were among the best of Mulek's time.    If so, the influence of Mulek's companions into the culture isn't surprising. It's as good a theory as any of the rest.

 

I don't know why you keep trying to shock and gotcha?   If you don't believe, then don't believe.  Your game is very transparent. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by Sevenbak

[Robert F. Smith]

The name appears in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 19:4, but since this book is a translation of an unknown language, we have no idea what his real name sounded like. We also do not know where the original name of Timothy came from. This is impossible to determine. 

Timothy is the Greek proper name timotheos “honoring-god, venerating-god” (Acts 16:1).  Hugh Nibley pointed out that Timothy “is an Ionian name, since the Greeks in Palestine were Ionians.”  He added:

 

Since the fourteenth century B.C. at latest, Syria and Palestine had been in constant contact with the Aegean world, and since the middle of the seventh century Greek mercenaries and merchants, closely bound to Egyptian interests (the best Egyptian mercenaries were Greeks), swarmed throughout the Near East.^[1]

[1] Nibley, LID, CWHN V:33, citing Pfeiffer, JBL, 56:91-95; Albright, JPOS, 1:187-194; Milne, JEA, 25:;178; Welch, PEFQ, 1900:342-350; Petrie, PEFQ, 1890:235; Glueck, BASOR, 80:3.

[Uncle Dale]

I don't know why you keep trying to shock and gotcha? If you don't believe, then don't believe. Your game is very transparent.

As mentioned previously, some of the responses I'm able

to solicit here end up being added to the notations I

append to historical newspaper clippings regarding the

Mormons, which I periodically post online.

If you see any of your statements paraphrased there, and

wish to have them removed, I'll gladly do so. A couple of

people have made that request (even though I have not

specifically cited their avatar names or actual names).

UD

 

Fair Use permits this but If you are mining the board for quotes, management requests you warn /or notify posters in your threads as a courtesy.

[Uncle Dale]

 

Timothy is the Greek proper name...

 

[1] Nibley, LID, CWHN V:33, citing Pfeiffer, JBL, 56:91-95; Albright, JPOS, 1:187-194; Milne, JEA, 25:;178; Welch, PEFQ, 1900:342-350; Petrie, PEFQ, 1890:235; Glueck, BASOR, 80:3.

 

.

Thanks for the hints, Pilgrim. -- That got me to thinking that I'd read

something along those lines once before.

And that got me to reviewing Alan C. Miner's lengthy web page on

"Chronology of LDS Thought on the Geography of the Jaredite Journey"

And -- reading through some entries there, reminded me that I never

got around to uploading my e-text of Samuel Mather's 1773 booklet:

"An Attempt to Shew, that America Must Be Known to the Ancients"

Which I'll be doing in the next day or so, here:

See what wonders cooperative efforts can produce!

UD

Edited March 16, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

.

...

And -- reading through some entries there, reminded me that I never

got around to uploading my e-text of Samuel Mather's 1773 booklet:

"An Attempt to Shew, that America Must Be Known to the Ancients"

Which I'll be doing in the next day or so, here:

 

 

.

I put my Mather scans' OCR on-line, but am still in the process

of proofreading the text.

 

I'd be curious to learn if anybody knows of another pre-1830

book in which the author concludes that ancient America was

Christianized during the apostolic era -- after first being settled

shortly after Noah's flood, and later by additional migrants

from the Old World.

 

 

In the second half of his presentation (which I'm still correcting)

Mather argues that the Americas are something like a holy land,

or the zenith of the Christian Gospel's world-wide spread, and

the capital of a future Christianized world. It almost seems as if

he anticipated mid-1840s Millerism, and the expectation that

Christ would come to America to begin the millennium.

 

But, perhaps I've overlooked some other book from those times

which is even more explicit in promoting the idea that the ancient

Christian Americans went into apostasy and that the Indians,

being their remnant, need to have their ancestors' true religion

restored in the latter days.

 

???

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

As mentioned previously, some of the responses I'm able

to solicit here end up being added to the notations I

append to historical newspaper clippings regarding the

Mormons, which I periodically post online.

If you see any of your statements paraphrased there, and

wish to have them removed, I'll gladly do so. A couple of

people have made that request (even though I have not

specifically cited their avatar names or actual names).

UD

 

Fair Use permits this but If you are mining the board for quotes, management requests you warn /or notify posters in your threads as a courtesy.

 

I generally only reproduce very short paraphrases of ideas

or opinions, without posting anything that would lead the

reader back to the more detailed and documented "forum"

source. However, should I find it advisable to quote something 

more closely and at length, I'll attempt to notify the forum

participant first.

 

Uncle Dale

[Ahab]

The name appears in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 19:4, but since this book is a translation of an unknown language, we have no idea what his real name sounded like. We also do not know where the original name of Timothy came from. This is impossible to determine.

I've heard hispanics pronounce Tim which sounds to me a lot more like Team. And I would guess that Tim in hispanic languages doesn't even look much less sound like what we would think of as Tim. Like how Paul in hispanic is Pablo. I don't understand the reasoning behind it, myself.

[Uncle Dale]

I've heard hispanics pronounce Tim which sounds to me a lot more like Team. And I would guess that Tim in hispanic languages doesn't even look much less sound like what we would think of as Tim. Like how Paul in hispanic is Pablo. I don't understand the reasoning behind it, myself.

 

I guess that these modern languages evolved from earlier

versions, in which Spanish and Italian were much more like

Latin than they are today.

 

If we could go back to Spain 1500 years ago, the pronunciation

of Timotheus there would probably be almost exactly like it was

in Italy, and probably fairly close to the Greek Timotheos, as well.

 

"Timothy" is an English version of Timotheos/Timotheus; just

like Timoteo is the modern Spanish version.

 

If Joseph Smith came across a Nephite word pronounced

"Tim-oh-thee" it would not necessarily have had anything to

do with the Greek Timotheos or the Latin Timotheus

 

Besides all of that, we have no idea how an Israelite, living

centuries before Christ, would have pronounced the name,

even if he encountered a Greek named Timotheos. And,

to make matters even worse, whatever that Hebraic type

pronunciation might have been in Lehi's day (or Mulek's),

we have no idea how the sounds would have evolved

during centuries of isolation in the Americas.

 

Safe bet: Joseph Smith found no "Timothy" engraved upon

golden plates.

 

Did he find a "Timotheos," or something similar? I can't

say; but personally I doubt it very much.

 

UD

Edited March 16, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Ahab]

I guess that these modern languages evolved from earlier versions, in which Spanish and Italian were much more like Latin than they are today.

Yes, and there are many languages older than Latin, Spanish, and Italian.

If we could go back to Spain 1500 years ago, the pronunciation of Timotheus there would probably be almost exactly like it was

in Italy, and probably fairly close to the Greek Timotheos, as well.

Now try going back from 514 A.D. to 514 B.C. Or from 514 B.C. to 1514 B.C. Or back even more.

I doubt there were no variations going back even further.

"Timothy" is an English version of Timotheos/Timotheus; just like Timoteo is the modern Spanish version.

But I'll bet there are also other and even earlier versions of what we now know as Timotheos/Timotheus/Timothy, too.

If Joseph Smith came across a Nephite word pronounced "Tim-oh-thee" it would not necessarily have had anything to

do with the Greek Timotheos or the Latin Timotheus.

But then again, maybe it did. What we do know is that there has always been a name or a word, if not more than one word or name, that later became what we now know as Timotheos/Timotheus/Timothy/Tim.

Besides all of that, we have no idea how an Israelite, living centuries before Christ, would have pronounced the name,

even if he encountered a Greek named Timotheos. And, to make matters even worse, whatever that Hebraic type pronunciation might have been in Lehi's day (or Mulek's),

we have no idea how the sounds would have evolved during centuries of isolation in the Americas.

It would be interesting to know, though, wouldn't it.

Safe bet: Joseph Smith found no "Timothy" engraved upon golden plates.

Did he find a "Timotheos," or something similar? I can't say; but personally I doubt it very much.

UD

Let's just agree that there was a root name for all versions of the name just like there is a root name for all other real names.

The name Timothy didn't come from out of nowhere and there is no good reason to think that any of the names that we know of right now are the primary root of that name.