The "ancient" Apostles...

[mfbukowski]

Wilford Woodruff:

 

Not all prophets understand equally  - Abraham 3:19

Do you sustain the prophet as a prophet seer and revelator and the only one on earth who possess and is authorized to use all priesthood keys?  (close but you get the idea...)

 

So you know better what should be retained better than at least some of the prophets do??

 

See- I don't have a problem with this because I feel that NONE of it is cast in stone and that even Brigham Young was a prophet like all prophets and so was Wilford Woodruff and what we have there is what one prophet said to another and not to be taken any more seriously than what presidents Benson said to Kimball or Monson said to Hinckley.

 

Or what Abraham allegedly said to Smith.

 

Revelation is the whole principle here- and you are now grading different revelations as being better than others.  Perhaps that is fine, but it should be examined as a position.

 

The whole system is based on the idea of sustaining the prophet - subject to your own testimony.   If you personally believe that parts of the endowment have been wrongly changed- I don't personally care but on the other hand I don't see how that is different from say, a Dehlin who wants the church to go his way.

 

I value the principle of obedience for its own sake on matters like this.  If someone I accept as an authority says God wants me to stand up, I will stand up.

 

Why not?   If he tells me to sit down, and raise my left hand, I will do that.  Why not?   It shows obedience to the one in charge of the path I have chosen and the reason for the ceremony IS TO SHOW THAT OBEDIENCE AND TO TEACH ME SYMBOLICALLY.

 

If he changes it to standing up and raising my right pinkie I will do that too.  No biggie- I understand the purpose of the ritual.

 

If he tells me to jump off a bridge, or take on a new wife, or divorce my present wife, I tell him to jump in the lake, and find another leader or no leader.  Big difference.

 

Well I guess we will never see eye to eye on this stuff.   I am far less literal than you.

Edited March 13, 2015 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

Another important point to consider about changes, is that the purpose has remained the same. As our society changes, the delivery has to change to maintain the same purpose. The purpose of the ordinances have never changed. The covenants have remained the same. Let me give some examples of what I would consider a significant change:

1) removing 'redeeming the dead' from one of the three pillars

2) accepting non-lds baptisms as valid and thereby voiding the need for priesthood authority

3) Changing one of the 9 fundamental doctrines such as the nature of the godhead, ordinances, or the plan of salvation

4) Removing the bible from the standard works

5) making the sealing ordinance about getting access to rare documents

 

These, to name a few, would be significant changes. Adjusting the placement of a hand, the length of a cloth, the use of a metaphor or the age for a calling? These are equal to arranging some of the chairs in a banquet hall. 

 

Thank you for clarifying.  I don't agree, but then I suppose I don't have to.  I find this mindset in conflict with the gospel principles laid down by the earlier prophets and the scriptures, but then I suppose we'd disagree on that too.  So we can just agree to disagree. 

[Freedom]

Thank you for clarifying.  I don't agree, but then I suppose I don't have to.  I find this mindset in conflict with the gospel principles laid down by the earlier prophets and the scriptures, but then I suppose we'd disagree on that too.  So we can just agree to disagree. 

What do you mean? What mindset? 

[JLHPROF]

What do you mean? What mindset? 

 

This one:

As our society changes, the delivery has to change to maintain the same purpose. The purpose of the ordinances have never changed. The covenants have remained the same.

 

And this one:

Adjusting the placement of a hand, the length of a cloth, the use of a metaphor or the age for a calling? These are equal to arranging some of the chairs in a banquet hall.

 

But I think we've exhausted this derail.  I'm good if you are.

[Freedom]

This one:

As our society changes, the delivery has to change to maintain the same purpose. The purpose of the ordinances have never changed. The covenants have remained the same.

 

And this one:

Adjusting the placement of a hand, the length of a cloth, the use of a metaphor or the age for a calling? These are equal to arranging some of the chairs in a banquet hall.

 

But I think we've exhausted this derail.  I'm good if you are.

or we could start another thread. I think that this might be an interesting topic to explore. 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The students would have had no idea anything changed because those who already took the course do not have to take it a second time, and those now taking the course would not have been aware that it was missing before. 

Of course this isn't how the temple works so students recognize the changes. I appreciate your clarification but I would disagree that changes in the practice and procedure are insignificant. Some changes may be, but not all. For example the practice of who can be sealed to each other. Can I go to the temple to be sealed to President Monson? Of course not. That's not done any more. But discontinuing a practice that would change eternal relationships seems like a major change to me.

 

And regardless of whether the changes are major as you define them or as I define them, it is indisputable that changes occur. I think it would be a mistake to assume that the person sitting in the chair of prophet makes no difference. Personalities, understanding, spiritual gifts all make a big difference, so a Packer presidency may be vastly different than an Uchtdorf Presidency.

 

Of course there could always be a major change in how the next prophet is chosen. The line of seniority could be bumped if necessary to avoid 10-20 years of constant turn over in the prophet.

[JLHPROF]

or we could start another thread. I think that this might be an interesting topic to explore. 

 

Go for it.

I think I'll lock this one as it has gone WAY off topic.