JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Does our Heavenly Mother exempt from this curse..what I mean is was she ever cursed? Her daughters are representative of her.Even in my most TBM spaces in life, I have thought that we, as sisters, were getting the wrong deal..or is it just implied that way for a reason? Women+Submission. That depends on your theological beliefs. If we believe that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother once dwelt on an earth as fallen mortals then she would have been subject to the curse (and now redeemed from it).Joseph Smith's wife Eliza R. Snow wrote: "Obedience will the same bright garland weave,As it has done for your great Mother, Eve,For all her daughters on the earth, who willAll my requirements sacredly fulfill.And what to Eve, though in her mortal life,She'd been the first, the tenth, or fiftieth wife?What did she care, when in her lowest state,Whether by fools, consider'd small, or great?'Twas all the same with her--she prov'd her worth--She's now the Goddess and the Queen of Earth."
Avatar4321 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Then why did He say "curse"? He didn't. It was translated curse
changed Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) What I am curious about is what is to become of women after the curse is lifted? After the resurrection, men will not need to sweat or work... does this mean that women will take on another role entirely too? I tell my two daughters a story - "sleeping beauty", about a princess who was raised outside of castle walls not knowing who she really was - that as a commoner she learned humility, work ethic, and all the important things in life.. then she meets her prince, and learns who she is, and then (the part of the story that is usually excluded) she becomes the best queen ever because she is intimately familiar with those in her kingdom - she does not see herself as being over them, but is instead of one of them, and that makes all the difference. the greatest are servants - would you rather be ruled by someone who grew up in a privileged life, or someone who started life as a servant? I would vote for, and have more respect for, the servant. Adam and Eve's curse I think make all of us more noble, and better able to take on whatever future responsibilities might come our way. Edited March 15, 2015 by changed
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 What I am curious about is what is to become of women after the curse is lifted? After the resurrection, men will not need to sweat or work... does this mean that women will take on another role entirely too? Nobody truly knows, but if man's curse is lifted, so is woman's - her desire will no longer be so focused in her husband, he shall no longer rule over her, and she shall no longer suffer pain during childbirth.
changed Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Hopefully we will all still desire one another - that's the whole point of heaven, love and being together forever and all that.
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Hopefully we will all still desire one another - that's the whole point of heaven, love and being together forever and all that. Love and desire are not the same thing. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. - Matthew 10:37 I think the priorities of our love and desire will be altered in the next life to be more in line with light and truth. Edited March 15, 2015 by JLHPROF
bluebell Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Then why did He say "curse"?Who is the 'He' you are referring to? If you are talking about God, can you share the reference where He calls it a curse?
bluebell Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Love and desire are not the same thing. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. - Matthew 10:37 I think the priorities of our love and desire will be altered in the next life to be more in line with light and truth. If woman's desire to her husband is a curse, then one has to wonder why man's desire to his wife isn't?
changed Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 The relationship between parent/child is of a lower caliber than husband/wife. The highest forms of love are reserved for our spouse and our God. Will we still have sex in heaven? I don't know, but a fullness of joy is a combination of the physical and the spiritual - so I think there will still be some physical component to it all.
tonie Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 If woman's desire to her husband is a curse, then one has to wonder why man's desire to his wife isn't? Just responding based on a common joke heard repeatedly and US media, perhaps the term "desire" in regard to a wife to her husband should be a substituted with a phrase that does not have the suggestion of intimacy. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 If woman's desire to her husband is a curse, then one has to wonder why man's desire to his wife isn't? It does bring up the question if cultural changes over the centuries have made any impact on this? Men have always loved their wives it's true, but culturally the expressions of desire have often been different from men and women. The historical ancedotes concerning plural marriage show the differences very clearly. But since plural marriage was ended I think those expressions of desire that men and women show each other have become more similar. But that is an anthropological question I am not qualified to answer.
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Just responding based on a common joke heard repeatedly and US media, perhaps the term "desire" in regard to a wife to her husband should be a substituted with a phrase that does not have the suggestion of intimacy. Agreed - I don't think the word desire in the "curse" refers to sexual attraction.
changed Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) teshuwqah / tesh-u-ka - feminine noun, meaning desire, longing, craving, of man for woman, of woman for man, of beast to devour, found in Gen 3:16, 4:7, and Sng 7:10. # H8669 in Strong's if you want to look it up in the BLB. www.blueletterbible.org for some reason I cannot copy and paste on here? Edited March 15, 2015 by changed
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 teshuwqah / tesh-u-ka - feminine noun, meaning desire, longing, craving, of man for woman, of woman for man, of beast to devour, found in Gen 3:16, 4:7, and Sng 7:10. # H8669 in Strong's if you want to look it up in the BLB. www.blueletterbible.org for some reason I cannot copy and paste on here? But is there a sexual connotation to the use of the word? You could use the same description for me and pizza on a Friday night. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) No curse, natural differences. Biologically in the human, the man must be the initiator of the act, or it doesn't work. Nowadays they even sell pills to make everybody happy anyway. Newsflash: Women are different than men. Yes, thank God we are now civilized and make all equal in our cultures as it should be. But the fact is men are larger and stronger and must initiate the wonderful dance that is human love, biologically and culturally. Biological fact. Millions upon millions of years of evolution cannot be changed by cultural fiat because we want it to be Men are larger and stronger. Women have breasts. One has to go hunt- the other has to feed the babies. Given those facts, which would you pick for each job? Survival itself requires these things. It hurts to have babies. Sorry- it's not my fault. Edited March 15, 2015 by mfbukowski 2
bluebell Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 No curse, natural differences. Biologically in the human, the man must be the initiator of the act, or it doesn't work. Nowadays they even sell pills to make everybody happy anyway. Newsflash: Women are different than men. Yes, thank God we are now civilized and make all equal in our cultures as it should be. But the fact is men are larger and stronger and must initiate the wonderful dance that is human love, biologically and culturally. Biological fact. Millions upon millions of years of evolution cannot be changed by cultural fiat because we want it to be Men are larger and stronger. Women have breasts. One has to go hunt- the other has to feed the babies. Given those facts, which would you pick for each job? Survival itself requires these things. It hurts to have babies. Sorry- it's not my fault. Men don't have to initiate physical intimacy. They just have to be physically able to go along with it if the woman initiates first. I know plenty of women who are almost always the one to initiate sex in their marriage. 2
mfbukowski Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Men don't have to initiate physical intimacy. They just have to be physically able to go along with it if the woman initiates first. I know plenty of women who are almost always the one to initiate sex in their marriage.Unfortunately we know that women can be forced into making a baby against their will, but men cannot. I did not want to go that direction but there it is. Theoretically reproduction can proceed without any assent from women whatsoever. I don't see that as a curse- I see it as a tragedy, but those are the facts of life. In that sense, biology forces women into a subservient role. In fact, whole cultures have been based essentially on rape. No women? Go over to that other tribe and grab some. It still happens today. God, or "nature"- pick your word- forgot to ask my opinion before that got set that up, but those are the facts of life. It has nothing to do with a "curse". It's biology. We are here to overcome the "natural man" and understand Christ in all of humanity. We are here to overcome biology but to deny the existence of the differences to be overcome is folly. Women will never be "equal" until we define all the differences to be overcome. Ignoring the differences gets us nowhere. It's like sticking your head in the sand and then wondering why we have problems seeing where we are going. Edited March 15, 2015 by mfbukowski
bluebell Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Unfortunately we know that women can be forced into making a baby against their will, but men cannot. I did not want to go that direction but there it is. Theoretically reproduction can proceed without any assent from women whatsoever. Very true. That's different though than saying that the man must initiate the act, which was what i wanted to clarify. I don't see that as a curse- I see it as a tragedy, but those are the facts of life. In that sense, biology forces women into a subservient role. This i don't agree with. Saying that because someone can be forced to do something, that means that even when they choose to do it they are still in a subservient role, doesn't make any sense to me. When I have a baby i am not serving my husband to any larger degree than he is serving me. It's biology. That women are weaker than men is very much biology, though most men really have no idea what that means or how it impacts women in every day life even though they know this is true.
mfbukowski Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Very true. That's different though than saying that the man must initiate the act, which was what i wanted to clarify. This i don't agree with. Saying that because someone can be forced to do something, that means that even when they choose to do it they are still in a subservient role, doesn't make any sense to me. When I have a baby i am not serving my husband to any larger degree than he is serving me. That women are weaker than men is very much biology, though most men really have no idea what that means or how it impacts women in every day life even though they know this is true. I know. We obviously don't get it. We all know that and have been told it our entire lives. Sigh. 3
Calm Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Unfortunately we know that women can be forced into making a baby against their will, but men cannot. I believe they can. A man in a coma for example can contribute sperm and sorry to go here, but a man being raped can be aroused and if restrained or drugged could unwilling impregnate someone. Edited March 16, 2015 by calmoriah
Calm Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I know. We obviously don't get it. We all know that and have been told it our entire lives. Sigh.Women don't get what it is like to be a man. Something also told us our entire lives.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I know.We obviously don't get it. We all know that and have been told it our entire lives. Sigh.I just meant that being physically weaker than men impacts life in a way that is not obvious for those who have never dealt with it. It's much more than just biology that it impacts.
mfbukowski Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I just meant that being physically weaker than men impacts life in a way that is not obvious for those who have never dealt with it.It's much more than just biology that it impacts.Huh? So being smaller and weaker is not "biology"?
mfbukowski Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Women don't get what it is like to be a man. Something also told us our entire lives.Yes, of course. This is why it is so important to marry someone of the opposite sex - so we can at least become "one" the the other mysterious half of humanity and try to make oneself "one" with the Other. Opposition in all things. Yin and yang and all that. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I believe they can. A man in a coma for example can contribute sperm and sorry to go here, but a man being raped can be aroused and if restrained or drugged could unwilling impregnate someone.A coma? I don't think that helps your case much. and the other? Ask a man about that. The fact is that if not in a coma an orgasm is involved. At that point the "unwilling" part becomes pretty blurry.
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