Eternal Same-Gender Procreation

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This might be a start for you. I'm sure you've read the letters between the first presidency and Lowry Nelson about the issues of race doctrine but here's a brief refresher.

 

(Bold is mine)

 

There are other gems in these letters that will elucidate the church's official positon for you. Again, taken with the official 1st Presidency statement from August 1949 and the admission in the race/priesthood essay that past teachings needed to be disavowed would indicate that the church and it's leadership were on the wrong side of the race issue.

 

I didn't want to have to look up these references again because I thought they were pretty well known. But there you go. Hope that helps, Pahoran.

 

ETA- Bold

IOW your claim is false if this is all you got. Some held this view but not all from BY to SWK.

[JLHPROF]

IOW your claim is false if this is all you got. Some held this view but not all from BY to SWK.

 

I was easily able to find quotations from ALL the prophets from Joseph Smith to Spencer W. Kimball (except Lorenzo Snow) that implied an inequity between blacks and other races, either on priesthood or interracial marriage or church membership etc.

 

Now, this is not the same as teachings of inferiority, but by implication it does show that they all taught that there were things that they didn't feel blacks had the right to do.  Is that really all that different from being inferior to those who ARE allowed to do something?

[pogi]

First, the majority of people who drink or eat sweat are always going to be judged of me. I have my limits in accepting human behavior, and that's it.

 

Don't knock it 'till you try it!  The sweat of gladiators used to be collected and sold as a potent aphrodisiac.  

[BlueDreams]

Don't knock it 'till you try it!  The sweat of gladiators used to be collected and sold as a potent aphrodisiac.  

 

Haha, I had finished writing that and was watching an episode on netflix that stated that exact thing. It still looked nasty. Still judged. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by BlueDreams

[HappyJackWagon]

IOW your claim is false if this is all you got. Some held this view but not all from BY to SWK.

Mola, IOW there are plenty of quotes. Here is a smattering from BY to SWK along with the others. This was not just a few isolated incidences. It was the pervasive attitude and teaching within the church.

 

You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham.

Brigham Young, New York Herald, May 4, 1855

 

We consider [slavery] of divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants.

Brigham Young, Brigham Young interviewed by Horace Greeley for NY Tribune article Aug 20, 1859

 

And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;...

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 22:304

 

And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground ‑‑ it would also take the life of his children.

Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's personal diary, 4:97

 

Another of the great evils of the age is race suicide [the use of contraceptives]. This also is not consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Providing opportunity for the spirit children of our Father in Heaven to come to earth and work out their own salvation is one of our sacred privileges and obligations. We teach that among the choicest of eternal riches are children.

Heber J. Grant, Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, p. 154

 

We are told that Michael and his angels fought, and we understand that we stood with Christ our Lord, on the platform, "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." I cannot conceive our Father consigning his children to a condition such as that of the negro race, if they had been valiant in the spirit world in that war in heaven.

George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, CR April 1939, Second Day‑Morning Meeting

 

The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre‑mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality.

George Albert Smith, Official Statement of First Presidency issued on August 17, 1951

 

I know of no scriptural basis for denying the Priesthood to Negroes other than one verse in the Book of Abraham (1:26); however, I believe, as you suggest that the real reason dates back to our pre‑existent life.

David O. McKay, Mormonism and the Negro, Part 2, p. 19

 

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61

 

There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65‑66

 

These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

Spencer W. Kimball, Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, October 1960; Improvement Era, December 1960, pp922‑923

 

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20‑27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of Spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 527‑528

 

Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, 'what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.' Only here we have the reverse of the thing ‑ what God hath separated, let not man bring together again.

Mark E. Petersen, Race Problems ‑ As They Affect The Church, Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954

 

The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.

First Presidency, The First Presidency on the Negro Question, 17 Aug. 1949

 

 

For more look at http://mormonquotes.com/Racism

 

[pogi]

Haha, I had finished writing that and was watching an episode on netflix that stated that exact thing. It still looked nasty. Still judged. 

 

Mankind: The Story of all of Us.  Yep, I watched that exact same episode last night, just in time for an opportunity to show-off my vast knowledge of Roman history 

[Pahoran]

I referenced both. Take another look

 

You explicitly and unequivocally claimed that Joseph's earliest FV account said that God was not corporeal.

 

Again, your own words were:

 

according to the first revelation on the first vision, written in Joseph's own hand, God didn't have a body of flesh and bone.

Except that that account says no such thing, does it?

You were not telling us the truth when you said that, were you?

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited March 4, 2015 by Pahoran

[Pahoran]

I have considered a couple of models of same-sex procreation. The most efficient one is asexual: we reproduce by division, like bacteria. In this model, no partners at all are necessary.

The next best is hermaphroditism: all individuals have the full complement of male and female reproductive organs. This happens in nature, with some molluscs, for example. There is no pair bonding with this method.

The third possibility I considered involves a genetic redesign. Females are still XX on Chromosome 26, but males are YY. This is how I imagine any supposed homosexual gods might design things. Under this model, XY pairings would be "unnatural" and sterile. Males would reproduce with males, and females with females.

And as I thought about it, I realised that under that model, neither sex needs the other. In fact, since they can't naturally reproduce and produce fertile offspring, they are essentially different species.

It was only a thought experiment. But it brought home to me that the Lord's way is not only the best way, it's the only way.

There will never be an "exalted same sex couple." Therefore, there will never be "same sex marriage" in the Temple.

And that's the way it should be.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Kevin Christensen]

Mola, IOW there are plenty of quotes. Here is a smattering from BY to SWK along with the others. This was not just a few isolated incidences. It was the pervasive attitude and teaching within the church.

And yet you left out the most important information about the root, source, and ultimate significance and authority involved.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=7674

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[HappyJackWagon]

 

You explicitly and unequivocally claimed that Joseph's earliest FV account said that God was not corporeal.

 

Again, your own words were:

 

Except that that account says no such thing, does it?

You were not telling us the truth when you said that, were you?

Regards,

Pahoran

Yes, I was purposely LYING to you. Grow up.

 

I went back and read the original post. What I was intending to say (it is my fault that I didn't say it correctly) was that the first vision made no mention that God had a body. That information came later. Sorry for the confusion.

[carbon dioxide]

Mola, IOW there are plenty of quotes. Here is a smattering from BY to SWK along with the others. This was not just a few isolated incidences. It was the pervasive attitude and teaching within the church.

Many quotes are based on speculation of why God prevented blacks from getting the priesthood.  However God simply not allowing blacks to get the priesthood does not mean they are inferior.  Women and younger children are not entitled to the priesthood but that does not mean they are inferior.  One should look at these quotes but not ignore the others that go in the opposite position like the following:

 

"They [Negroes] came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls [given in a time when many non-LDS people in society questioned whether Blacks had souls], and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated Negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol 5, p. 217)

 

"Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage." (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, vol XXII, p. 743)

 

"The Declaration of Independence 'holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.', but, at the same time, some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours...The Constitution of the United States of America meant just what it said without reference to color or condition, ad infinitum!" (Joseph Smith, "Messages of The First Presidency" 1:191-192)

 

 

"I love a man without regard to his country, or where he was brought up, without reference to color or nation. I love a man that loves truth." (Parley P. Pratt "Journal of Discourses" 3:182)

 

"Many of the blacks are treated worse than we treat our dumb brutes; and men will be called to judgment for the way they have treated the Negro, and they will receive the condemnation of a guilty conscience, by the just Judge whose attributes are justice and truth." (Brigham Young "Journal of Discourses" 10:250)

 

"The 'master race' claims are sheer poppycock, used by characterless men to further their own interests. There has never been a monopoly of mastery in human achievement by any one nation. To claim so is simply to allow the lawless nationalism to run wild....The 'master race' doctrine of the late war was an ugly delusion, conceived by the powers of evil, whose prince is Satan, the devil." (John A. Widstoe "Evidences and Reconciliations" p. 3-4)

 

"George Washington Carver was one of the noblest souls that ever came to earth. He held in close kinship with his Heavenly Father, and rendered a service to his fellowman such as few have ever excelled. For every religious endeavor, for every noble impulse, for every good deed performed in his useful life, George Washington Carver will be rewarded, and so will every other man be he red, white, black, or yellow, for God is no respecter of person." (David O. McKay Home Memories of David O. McKay, p. 231)

 

"No church or other organization is more insistent than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that the Negroes should receive all the rights and privileges that can possibly be given to any other in the true sense of equality as declared in the Declaration of Independence. They should be equal to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." They should be equal in the matter of education. They should not be barred from obtaining knowledge and becoming proficient in any field of science, art or mechanical occupation. They should be free to choose any kind of employment, to go into business in any field they may choose and to make their lives as happy as it is possible without interference from white men, labor unions or from any other source. In their defense of these privileges the members of the Church will stand." (President Joseph Fielding Smith "Answers to Gospel Questions", Vol. 2, p. 185)

 

"full civil equality for all of God's children," saying "it is a moral evil…to deny any human being the right to gainful employment, to full educational opportunity, and to every privilege of citizenship, just as it is a moral evil to deny him the right to worship" (President Hugh B. Brown IE 66 [Dec. 1963] p. 1058)