Reincarnation - True Doctrine, Or False?

[bdouglas]

Several weeks ago I started a thread about the book "Visions Of Glory". I said I didn't believe the book at all but that there was a member of my extended family who was quite taken with the book and entirely believed it. Now this same family member, known on this forum as "Man Of the Cloth", has been emailing me about his firm belief in reincarnation, or "multiple probations". I told him that I did not think that the doctrine of reincarnation/multiple probations was at all compatible with the scriptures, in fact (I said), I think the scriptures contradict the idea. He does not agree and said that while this doctrine is not plainly stated in the scriptures, he does not believe it is incompatible with the scriptures. We agreed to go onto this forum to see what others think.

 

When I asked him to state what it is exactly he bases this belief on, he sent me an outline containing 13 items. Below I quote Item #1:

 

 

ITEM #1

We have been here on the earth five times before this dispensation which is now the 6th dispensation. One life per dispensation sounds good to me.

 

What do I base this belief on? I refer you to the opening statement wherein I referred to what Dr. Robert T Beckstead once said Eliza R. Snow repeated regarding off-hand musings from her husband Joseph Smith. She said something like, "resurrection, as we (Mormons) believe it, makes no sense to me. It is not scientifically supportable. The only process which makes sense is for resurrection to be a rebirth of one's soul into a new body." This gave rise to the so-called Baby Resurrection debates of the 19th century before Joseph F. Smith shut the discussion down. I think you will find evidence of the controversy in Abraham H. Cannon's journal and from others who will remember Orson F. Whitney's personal beliefs about Baby Resurrection. Like any good and obedient Ephraimite (Mormon) of his time, he complied with President Smith's desire to bury the subject. Also with Dr. Beckstead's talk came another revelation about what Sister Eliza called "plural mortal expiations" which is another term for "multiple probations" and reincarnation. She reportedly said Brother Joseph thought we came to earth one time per dispensation and since we are in the 6th dispensation now, I have logically been here 5 times before this my present life.

 

 

Man Of the Cloth knows that I think that (1) the doctrine of multiple probations is not in the scriptures and is in fact contradicted by the scriptures, (2) that it negates the Atonement, and that (3) I find the idea depressing.

 

But I thought it would be interesting to see what others think about it.

 

[pogi]

You only get one shot -- Eminem

[ksfisher]

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 34

 

 24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Alma 12

 

Neither of these scriptures seems to support the idea of a reincarnation. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I see no evidence for reincarnation, either doctrinally or other wise.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[The Nehor]

The one shot per dispensation makes sense except there were other dispensations not part of the big 7. You could point out that we are actually in the 7th for one things.

 

In addition population demographics do not support this theory. Did everyone live through the short-lived dispensation Jesus established? Not likely, more people are on the earth alive today right now then were through the entirety of that dispensation. That is not even going back to 1830 or however far into the future this will go.

[bdouglas]

You only get one shot -- Eminem

 

Well, MOC (my cousin) would say, "How are we supposed to grow into godhood with just one probation under our belts."

 

And I would say: "We don't stop progressing when we die."

 

And he would reply: "But the scriptures say that not much work can be done on the other side.  They also say this life is the time to prepare to meet God, and it is also the time to learn to become like God. Is it reasonable to suggest that we only get one shot at it, one probation?"

 

And I would say, "I think I have probably had other lives, other probations of one sort or another previous to coming here, but not on this earth, not between the grand council in heaven and the day in future when all is wrapped up and the Lord has finished his work. The scriptures say men die once, and then go to judgement."

 

And he would reply. "Ah. You mean Heb. 9, where Paul says men 'die once'. Well I don't think Paul really thought about the question, and it is also possible that passage is a mistranslation."

 

And I would say, "If it were a mistranslation, don't you think Joseph Smith would've picked up on it in his inspired translation of the Bible. And speaking of Joseph Smith, didn't he say reincarnation was a doctrine of the devil?"

 

And he would reply, "You mean incident in NYC when he encountered the 'prophet' Elijah? He was not talking about reincarnation but transmigration of the soul."

 

And I would say, "But don't you think he would have clarified, don't you think he would've said, 'No, that is transmigration of the soul, and that is a doctrine of the devil. But reincarnation, or multiple probations, is a true doctrine.' But he didn't say that. He simply said 'it is a doctrine of the devil.' "

Edited February 12, 2015 by bdouglas

[Uncle Dale]

Several weeks ago I started a thread about the book "Visions Of Glory". I said I didn't believe the book at all but that there was a member of my extended family who was quite taken with the book and entirely believed it. Now this same family member, known on this forum as "Man Of the Cloth", has been emailing me about his firm belief in reincarnation, or "multiple probations". I told him that I did not think that the doctrine of reincarnation/multiple probations was at all compatible with the scriptures, in fact (I said), I think the scriptures contradict the idea. He does not agree and said that while this doctrine is not plainly stated in the scriptures, he does not believe it is incompatible with the scriptures. We agreed to go onto this forum to see what others think.

 

When I asked him to state what it is exactly he bases this belief on, he sent me an outline containing 13 items. Below I quote Item #1:

 

 

 

Man Of the Cloth knows that I think that (1) the doctrine of multiple probations is not in the scriptures and is in fact contradicted by the scriptures, (2) that it negates the Atonement, and that (3) I find the idea depressing.

 

But I thought it would be interesting to see what others think about it.

 

I never had much use for the notion of the trans-migration of souls;

and I used to live in South Asia, where this belief was the norm.

 

Only it wasn't -- at least the more educated, thoughtful Buddhist 

monks considered even reincarnation as a sort of illusion -- or,

at least as a wrong interpretation of reality.

 

In their explanations (as best I can recall) reincarnation is a seeming

event that has its proper place within a whole catalog of other seeming

occurrences, collectively termed "maya." There is mundane maya,

which is akin to delusion, and there are higher, more ethereal forms 

of maya, which reveal metaphysical truths, but in symbolic context.

 

Imagining back into the past of planet earth, each of us alive today

once had near-duplicates, living in the same world, but at a different

time. These doubles make have looked very much like we do; some

may have thought and acted very much like we today do; and some

may have resembled our respective current "selves" so closely as

to essentially be the same person(s) as we now are.

 

None of which means that any previous living beings' "souls" have

come to live again in our 2015 bodies.

 

But, what would we call a fellow from the year 776, who for all practical

purposes was a predecessor duplicate of the Benjamin Franklin of 1776?

 

What would we call a fellow from the year 1515 who for all practical

purposes "was" the current Dali Lama? -- and perhaps resembling

that living spiritual leader down to such uncanny resemblances as

their both having been Tibetan monks?

 

Take all of that any way you wish -- or, dismiss it entirely -- my point

is that are serious-minded folks living today, who grow up among the

reincarnationists, and yet who have some nuanced and sophisticated 

explanations for what contributes to the phenomenon of apparent rebirth.

 

UD

[pogi]

Well, MOC (my cousin) would say, "How are we supposed to grow into godhood with just one probation under our belts."

 

Remind him of the thousand years that we are going to have learning at the feet of the Lord himself. 

[JLHPROF]

Multiple Mortal Probations is a false doctrine (that won't stay away).

 

Hebrews 9:27 -  "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

[filovirus]

I recall (hearsay) hearing from somewhere that for the Adam-God theory to work, Adam would have had to have had a probationary state to become god prior to being placed in the Garden of Eden. He and Eve would be the only two that would have been reincarnated from a resurrected body. And only to populate this world.

 

It's unfortunate that Brigham Young never got to really expound on this theory.

[bdouglas]

I recall (hearsay) hearing from somewhere that for the Adam-God theory to work, Adam would have had to have had a probationary state to become god prior to being placed in the Garden of Eden. He and Eve would be the only two that would have been reincarnated from a resurrected body. And only to populate this world.

 

It's unfortunate that Brigham Young never got to really expound on this theory.

 

Every MP-er (believers in multiple probations) I've talked to also believes in Adam-God, in fact the source of the idea comes from Eliza R. Snow quote (which I have never really seen documented) and Adam-God. But I have never clearly understood the connection. I also have to wonder why, if Adam-God and MP go together, Brigham Young, in his numerous talks and mountains of writings, never mentioned it.

 

But Orson Hyde was an advocate of the doctrine and he was an apostle. So maybe there is something I'm missing. Believers in this doctrine today include (1) fundamentalist Mormons, like Jim Harmston's followers in Manti; and (2), a small sub-culture of otherwise mainstream LDS who accept books like "Visions Of Glory" and who strongly believe in Adam-God. Many of them also, or the ones I've talked to, believe in the John Koyle's dream mine and they believe in Koyle's prophecies.

[JLHPROF]

I recall (hearsay) hearing from somewhere that for the Adam-God theory to work, Adam would have had to have had a probationary state to become god prior to being placed in the Garden of Eden. He and Eve would be the only two that would have been reincarnated from a resurrected body. And only to populate this world.

 

It's unfortunate that Brigham Young never got to really expound on this theory.

 

I think it's simpler than that.  I don't know about a probationary state, but I think each Adam/God gets to practice by helping those over them to create their earth first.

Do any of us really think we will create an earth before Christ?  Abraham?  Noah?  Moses?  Joseph Smith?  etc..

Even IF you accept the Adam-God doctrine as I do (and most don't), we are still going to need a lot of practice before we are ready to run our own creation.  Joseph Smith said it could be a very long time.  Those who are ready first create first, at least that's my opinion.

 

And as I pointed out on another thread, our endowment is our first practice shot at being Adam/God (or second depending on how similar premortal life was to this one).

[JLHPROF]

Every MP-er (believers in multiple probations) I've talked to also believes in Adam-God, in fact the source of the idea comes from Eliza R. Snow quote (which I have never really seen documented) and Adam-God. But I have never clearly understood the connection. I also have to wonder why, if Adam-God and MP go together, Brigham Young, in his numerous talks and mountains of writings, never mentioned it.

 

But Orson Hyde was an advocate of the doctrine and he was an apostle. So maybe there is something I'm missing. Believers in this doctrine today include (1) fundamentalist Mormons, like Jim Harmston's followers in Manti; and (2), a small sub-culture of otherwise mainstream LDS who accept books like "Visions Of Glory" and who strongly believe in Adam-God. Many of them also, or the ones I've talked to, believe in the John Koyle's dream mine and they believe in Koyle's prophecies.

 

I am an Adam-God believer and I don't believe in MMP, at least not as reincarnation folk and Jim Harmston's crazies define it.  However, if you consider Adam's mortal probation on a previous planet and then on this planet as head of the family to be MMP then I suppose I do.

 

But I don't believe Adam died a second time (in spite of Genesis 5:5).  I don't believe ANYONE dies more than once - Heb 9:7.

 

As for John Koyle...well that's a whole other issue.

[bdouglas]

I am an Adam-God believer and I don't believe in MMP, at least not as reincarnation folk and Jim Harmston's crazies define it.  However, if you consider Adam's mortal probation on a previous planet and then on this planet as head of the family to be MMP then I suppose I do.

 

But I don't believe Adam died a second time (in spite of Genesis 5:5).  I don't believe ANYONE dies more than once - Heb 9:7.

 

As for John Koyle...well that's a whole other issue.

 

 

We all have a long history before coming here, and who knows what that might have included? But I believe I have been born only once on this earth and that I will die once, not multiple times.

[bdouglas]

There has to be a few believers in this doctrine on this board. I invite them to tell the rest of us how they reconcile a belief in "Multiple Mortal Probationary Expiations" with the scriptures.

 

(The "expiations" bit is the belief that, if we don't repent, we pay for our sins over and over again in new probations. What is the point of the Atonement then, I ask?)

[bdouglas]

In addition population demographics do not support this theory. Did everyone live through the short-lived dispensation Jesus established? Not likely, more people are on the earth alive today right now then were through the entirety of that dispensation. That is not even going back to 1830 or however far into the future this will go.

 

Good point.

[bdouglas]

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 34

 

 24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Alma 12

 

Neither of these scriptures seems to support the idea of a reincarnation. 

 

MP-er's would say that neither of these scriptures explicitly precludes the idea that we have multiple probations on this earth.

[strappinglad]

I have said before that I hold reincarnation as a possibility for those who have not been exposed to the gospel. The vast majority of people who have lived on the earth have had no clue about Christ let alone the Eternal father. What is the point of their mortal probation then? Was it just to get a body and live within the traditions of their culture? Are they somehow lesser creatures that cannot abide a more rigorous testing so are never to be faced with gospel related questions? There are too many fairness questions that arise if life is a one shot wonder.

Having said all this, I don't look upon reincarnation as a doctrine, just a possibility which may even involve a voluntary return if desired. Alma says that this life is the time to prepare to meet God. I think that is true, IF one has been presented with an informed choice. If all that is done in the post mortal realm , so be it.

[manofthecloth]

Do the words derisive and smug ever come to mind when you think about your own beliefs? One of the trademarks of a true Israelite is how sure they are in what they believe. We ourselves can't quite say what is doctrine for sure (nor even where to find it without fail), but we know it when we feel it. We know how to interpret scripture, for example, because all that is needed is to follow our leaders and read the footnotes. Right? Every primary child knows the drill and we can all answer every question during correlated Gospel Doctrine classes.

 

Day over day I work from Brooklyn, New York with my second favorite clan of Israelites (I will admit Ephraimites are my #1 favorites). My second favorite clan call themselves Chabad Jews and they are very much like us in not a few good ways. Orthodox Jews, in particular, "receive tradition" by studying the Kabbalah which includes a very interesting concept of Gilgul which is the rectification of ones soul with Messiah and God. When I heard it I saw a familiar thread with our own rectification and expiation (or atonement) with God and Christ. Messiah to them is not the same as God, but the role of mediator for the Messiah is completely compatible.

 

Here is a mind experiment. Think of "the next life."  Where are you? On this earth or somewhere else? I thought so.  You are in the Millennium on this earth because that is our hope. We do not skip to the Celestial Kingdom (also on this earth), but we stay right here with our Messiah striving upward. 

 

What if:  What if "this life" is this our entire sojourn in the Telestial World (or the World in which we now live?). I cannot be made perfect without you nor you without me during this life which is best lived and experienced communally. What if Eliza and Joseph's private musings were correct.  It is possible Joseph heard the Kabbalah teaching Gilgul from Dr Neibaur and was intrigued. The most ardent Jews of our day believe they were present at Mount Sinai for the presentation of the 613 commandments of the Torah, yet nary a one of us think about our own Ephraimite roots with the same reverence.  Why is that? We all know where we want to go, but what about something regarding where we have been. Our traditions come from Catholics and Protestants. We rarely draw from Israel especially of late. Furthermore, we think we had a premortal existence which is not anyone else.   On what do we base it (except thin scriptural evidence derived mostly from mainstream Christianity) and why could it (premortal existence) not have included another probation? I don't think my cousin (knowing him personally ) could honestly say 5 extra lives would have gotten him any much closer to negating the need for an atonement. That idea is quite silly to me.

[bdouglas]

Do the words derisive and smug ever come to mind when you think about your own beliefs? One of the trademarks of a true Israelite is how sure they are in what they believe. We ourselves can't quite say what is doctrine for sure (nor even where to find it without fail), but we know it when we feel it. We know how to interpret scripture, for example, because all that is needed is to follow our leaders and read the footnotes. Right? Every primary child knows the drill and we can all answer every question during correlated Gospel Doctrine classes.

 

Day over day I work from Brooklyn, New York with my second favorite clan of Israelites (I will admit Ephraimites are my #1 favorites). My second favorite clan call themselves Chabad Jews and they are very much like us in not a few good ways. Orthodox Jews, in particular, "receive tradition" by studying the Kabbalah which includes a very interesting concept of Gilgul which is the rectification of ones soul with Messiah and God. When I heard it I saw a familiar thread with our own rectification and expiation (or atonement) with God and Christ. Messiah to them is not the same as God, but the role of mediator for the Messiah is completely compatible.

 

Here is a mind experiment. Think of "the next life."  Where are you? On this earth or somewhere else? I thought so.  You are in the Millennium on this earth because that is our hope. We do not skip to the Celestial Kingdom (also on this earth), but we stay right here with our Messiah striving upward. 

 

What if:  What if "this life" is this our entire sojourn in the Telestial World (or the World in which we now live?). I cannot be made perfect without you nor you without me during this life which is best lived and experienced communally. What if Eliza and Joseph's private musings were correct.  It is possible Joseph heard the Kabbalah teaching Gilgul from Dr Neibaur and was intrigued. The most ardent Jews of our day believe they were present at Mount Sinai for the presentation of the 613 commandments of the Torah, yet nary a one of us think about our own Ephraimite roots with the same reverence.  Why is that? We all know where we want to go, but what about something regarding where we have been. Our traditions come from Catholics and Protestants. We rarely draw from Israel especially of late. Furthermore, we think we had a premortal existence which is not anyone else.   On what do we base it (except thin scriptural evidence derived mostly from mainstream Christianity) and why could it (premortal existence) not have included another probation? I don't think my cousin (knowing him personally ) could honestly say 5 extra lives would have gotten him any much closer to negating the need for an atonement. That idea is quite silly to me.

 

I've read your post twice and still don't know what you're talking about. Questions posed by thread are: How does one reconcile the doctrine of multiple probations with the scriptures? And secondly, what is this doctrine based on in the first place?

[bdouglas]

 

manofthecloth: "What if Eliza and Joseph's private musings were correct?"

 

The only record of Joseph's "private musings" on reincarnation that we have are when he denounced it NYC as a "doctrine of the devil". That's it. Anything beyond this is supposition on your part.

Edited February 13, 2015 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

My post was written to take you (especially you ) away from the traditions of our fathers and out into the entire context of our World in which we are only a tiny percentage. Our mostly Catholic/Protestant interpretation of scripture may be entirely the problem. As Mormons we scoff at the binary heaven vs hell afterlife reward system and replace it with our own modified binary scheme (see plan of salvation chart) complete with an everlasting occupation of the Telestial Kingdom for those of us who can't make it to the party in the Celestial Kingdom. Have I told you I think our ideas of post earth life are false?  Why should I reconcile any "new" idea with old sectarian traditions? The question is not "how does one reconcile the doctrine of multiple probations with the scriptures (i.e. our interpretation of scripture)?" but rather, "how do plural mortal expiations (multiple probations) truly contradict 1) revealed scripture and 2) other revelations received by Joseph Smith. Why are the rules set up to preserve the traditions of our fathers especially if the traditions could be false?

[bdouglas]

My post was written to take you (especially you ) away from the traditions of our fathers and out into the entire context of our World in which we are only a tiny percentage. Our mostly Catholic/Protestant interpretation of scripture may be entirely the problem. As Mormons we scoff at the binary heaven vs hell afterlife reward system and replace it with our own modified binary scheme (see plan of salvation chart) complete with an everlasting occupation of the Telestial Kingdom for those of us who can't make it to the party in the Celestial Kingdom. Have I told you I think our ideas of post earth life are false?  Why should I reconcile any "new" idea with old sectarian traditions? The question is not "how does one reconcile the doctrine of multiple probations with the scriptures (i.e. our interpretation of scripture)?" but rather, "how do plural mortal expiations (multiple probations) truly contradict 1) revealed scripture and 2) other revelations received by Joseph Smith. Why are the rules set up to preserve the traditions of our fathers especially if the traditions could be false?

 

Sorry but I don't even know what you're talking about. The two questions posed are quite simple, but you avoid even going near them.

[manofthecloth]

Sorry but I don't even know what you're talking about. The two questions posed are quite simple, but you avoid even going near them.

I reject your premise because it is stacked in your favor.  There is no way to introduce a different idea into our culture because we all know the answers and we all know what is truth. We are the great echo chamber of Ephraim!

[bdouglas]

To make it simple, you could start by saying how you get around Heb. 9, and then also the two BOM scriptures posed by earlier poster in this thread. And the second question, what do you base your belief in multiple mortal probationary expiations on? It seems to me all that you have is one quote by Eliza R. Snow that really cannot even be documented. Is there anything else? If so, what?

 

Simple, direct questions call for simple, direct answers.