The Rich And The Poor - Lds Statements

[carbon dioxide]

My point was that government jobs don't pay a rich wage, at or near a million or millions of dollars per year. Even the top paid officer, the President, doesn't get paid that much, topping out at about 300k per year, last time I heard. So if you want to get paid a rich wage, like a CEO of a major corporation or an investment banker or an actor or an athlete or anyone else who makes that much you'll need to get another job instead or in addition to a government job.

Presidents make 400K a year along with many other perks.  There are other people in government that make more but they are not elected positions.  Plus the real money is made after one leaves the White House.  The Clintons made a hundred million and I am sure Obama will make millions in speaking fees.

[Ahab]

Presidents make 400K a year along with many other perks.

I can accept that until I hear otherwise. Thank you for the update.

There are other people in government that make more but they are not elected positions.

I doubt that. Who could posdibly make more than the President of the whole government system, in government salary?

Plus the real money is made after one leaves the White House. The Clintons made a hundred million and I am sure Obama will make millions in speaking fees.

Again, that wasn't my point. I was talking about government salaries.

[MormonFreeThinker]

You seem to have a dislike for successful (rich) people.  Does it make you mad that they have been able to work hard and accomplish so much?  Or does it make you mad that they might just not want to share it with you?

 

No ad hominem please, and please repond to the points I made in post 101, just a red herring.

I do not dislike rich people, I am only saying that all full time hard workers deserve a living wage. Do you agree with that? If the rich cannot afford to pay their employees a living wage, why are they still rich? why are they getting richer? 

 

What would Jesus say? Please answer.

 

 

Bingo!  I have an idea.    You, Mormon FT, need to start your own company.

 

I am not rich, but if i started my small business, I wouldn't have a lot of customers because there is a significant number of workers that live in poverty, and they cannot afford anything. I don't know how a small business can survive with few customers.  The more money people have, the more they spend it.  Have you been to Australia? The rich in Australia do pay their employees a living wage,  Australia doesn't have a high unemployment rate. 

 

 

Now, a person with a kid chooses to work at your place and says I can't survive on 8.00-10.00/hr  pay me more.  And then all the employees have kids and want "deserve" more.    There goes all the profit -  unforeseen expenses can no longer be dealt with.   You tell your, now 16 employees that are counting a some money that there is NO MORE MONEY and the business is closing.   They go from possibly 8-10 to 18-20 and then NOTHING. 

 

I am talking about the rich, not small businesses. Are you more concern about the rich than poor single mothers? 

 

Harvard Mitt Romney, Pope Francis,  and other intelligent people say that all hard workers deserve a living wage.

 

 

But I wear the 'evil' badge with pride Mormon FT because I am doing while you are whining and complaining.  You provide no solutions other that stating that people deserve a handout because they show up.    Keep pushing for everybody gets a trophy.    

 

A Christlike response please, some open minded people are reading your comments. The good thing is that only few people think that full time workers do not serve a living wage. Please read post 101, please do not ignore my arguments about circumstances and chance.

 

Let me remind you what Elder Holland said, "as King Benjamin taught, cease withholding our means because we see the poor as having brought their misery upon themselves. Perhaps some have created their own difficulties, but don’t the rest of us do exactly the same thing? Isn’t that why this compassionate ruler asks, “Are we not all beggars?”

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/are-we-not-all-beggars?lang=eng

Edited November 1, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

Rich people don't create jobs; Customers do.

[The Nehor]

You seem to have a dislike for successful (rich) people.  Does it make you mad that they have been able to work hard and accomplish so much?  Or does it make you mad that they might just not want to share it with you?

 

Someone drank the kool-aid. You heard it here first. Wealth is a sign that you are hard-working. I can't wait until we develop a machine that measures the effort people put into their jobs. The idea that capitalism is a meritocracy will burn in glorious flames.

 

That being said, I think people should be industrious. I am just under no delusions exertion matches one's paycheck.

 

You can easily turn this around. Does it make you mad that maybe you don't deserve what you have been given? Or does it make you mad that God told you that you don't necessarily deserve it?

 

I would encourage you to admit that luck and circumstance helped you achieve whatever success you have. It is amazingly liberating.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mitt Romney has been over many organizations that, given time, I can probably research back to non-living wages.   

 

You seem to have a dislike for successful (rich) people.  Does it make you mad that they have been able to work hard and accomplish so much?  Or does it make you mad that they might just not want to share it with you?

 

Bingo!  I have an idea.    You, Mormon FT, need to start your own company.   

Start off small with just you and another employee or two.  You work about 60 hours  a week to really keep things going.  

Sales total for awhile are about 50k/mth.   

You run about 27% GP (any more and the customers will go to the competition)

$13,500 profit.  

Your take  4,000.00

Rent          1,750.00

Utilities      1,000.00 (water,phone,electric, security system)

Loan          1,000.00 (equipment/fixtures/opening inventory)

Labor         2,216.96 (8.00/hr x 32   x 4.33 if your business minded, you understand the .33)

Insurance   1,000.00

941 taxes   1,000.00 (rough guess)

other unforeseen expenses   ?????  (yes, they do pop up)

 

Without unforeseen expenses, that's 1533.04 margin of profit.  

 

Now fast forward several years down the road.  

 

All of these numbers increase as does the profit to about 7500-10000k /mth.  

 

Now, a person with a kid chooses to work at your place and says I can't survive on 8.00-10.00/hr  pay me more.  And then all the employees have kids and want "deserve" more.    There goes all the profit -  unforeseen expenses can no longer be dealt with.   You tell your, now 16 employees that are counting a some money that there is NO MORE MONEY and the business is closing.   They go from possibly 8-10 to 18-20 and then NOTHING.  

Oh, btw, this is my business model.  I have myself  making the most (because I'm greedy that way), a manager making 55k (with potential performance bonuses available), an assistant making 42k and another at 30k.  The rest are part time guys making between 8.25-10.00.

I have plans on expanding some more to give another manager about 50k, another asst or two between 30-35 and about 7 MORE part timers between 8/hr and 10/hr.

Now, I write about 16 paychecks every week that people depend on to help them get  by.  These guys all work their 'arses' off more than most factory workers that sit on a forklift.  They do it in the heat of the summer (+100) and they do it in the chill of the winter (20-30).  

But I wear the 'evil' badge with pride Mormon FT because I am doing while you are whining and complaining.  You provide no solutions other that stating that people deserve a handout because they show up.    Keep pushing for everybody gets a trophy.    

 

*disclosure for MFT.  Yes, my net worth has increased as a result.

Another untold truth, is that you are doing more to help poor people than MFT is.  You are providing real jobs that actually pay. He is not. It is funny when people that have 0 experience in the real world of money try to project their utopian view on to things.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I would encourage you to admit that luck and circumstance helped you achieve whatever success you have. It is amazingly liberating.

Sometimes that plays a role but you are purely delusional if you think hard work plays no part. I know no one that did not make a lot of money that just sits on their butts other than maybe trust fund babies. I am only talking about people that work for their money. People that make a lot of money generally take more risk.

 

I don't know why I even bother dialoguing with you on these points. It will prove to be pointless.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[The Nehor]

Sometimes that plays a role but you are purely delusional if you think hard work plays no part. I know no one that did not make a lot of money that just sits on their butts other than maybe trust fund babies. I am only talking about people that work for their money. People that make a lot of money generally take more risk.

 

I don't know why I even bother dialoguing with you on these points. It will prove to be pointless.

I did not claim it plays no role. I just claimed it was not the sole determinant. I am not even sure if it is a major factor. It is still good to try. Good practice for next life where effort does always pay off.

I am not sure why I dialogue with you either. I find those who make an idol out of the economic American Dream to be dangerously I'll-informed.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Another untold truth, is that you are doing more to help poor people than MFT is.  You are providing real jobs that actually pay. He is not. It is funny when people that have 0 experience in the real world of money try to project their utopian view on to things.

 

He ignored my points, I hope he responds. there are many possible solutions that I did not talk about because I don't want to get political. 

Do you agree that all hard workers deserve a living wage? 

 

What would Jesus say? 

 

and see the video in post 129. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Sleeper Cell]

Rich people don't create jobs; Customers do.

And judging by the success of Walmart and other companies that “exploit” their workers, customers prefer to create jobs that do not pay a “living wage.”  

[thesometimesaint]

And judging by the success of Walmart and other companies that “exploit” their workers, customers prefer to create jobs that do not pay a “living wage.”  

 

Walmart is loosing money while Costco is making money.

SEE http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/04/17/walmart-pays-workers-poorly-and-sinks-while-costco-pays-workers-well-and-sails-proof-that-you-get-what-you-pay-for/

 

Walmart does exploit it employees.

SEE http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/03/30/3420798/walmart-staff-hours-3-billion/

 

Walmart has crappy goods.

SEE http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-not-to-buy-at-walmart-17-05-2011/

 

Walmart has crappy customer service.

SEE http://www.businessinsider.com/wal-marts-customer-service-issues-2013-4

 

You and I pay for it with our tax dollars.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

[MormonFreeThinker]

customers prefer to create jobs that do not pay a “living wage.”  

 

Because a large number of customers do not have the money to buy stuff that is made in the USA, they can only afford stuff that comes from China. 

 

Again, the rich like Walmart should help the poor, they can easily increase the cost of their products by 2 percent so they can pay their employees a  living wage. See video  

 

All hard working full time employees deserve a living wage, that is the best way the rich can help the poor. 

 

Elder Holland said, "Now, lest I be accused of proposing quixotic global social programs or of endorsing panhandling as a growth industry, I reassure you that my reverence for principles of industry, thrift, self-reliance, and ambition is as strong as that of any man or woman alive."

Edited November 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Vance]

My point was that government jobs don't pay a rich wage, at or near a million or millions of dollars per year. Even the top paid officer, the President, doesn't get paid that much, topping out at about 300k per year, last time I heard. So if you want to get paid a rich wage, like a CEO of a major corporation or an investment banker or an actor or an athlete or anyone else who makes that much you'll need to get another job instead or in addition to a government job.

Oh, I don't know about that.

http://www.npri.org/issues/publication/transparentnevada-reveals-exorbitant-salaries-of-government-employees

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/overpaid-federal-workers

Pull quote,

As a consequence, the average federal civilian worker now earns 74 percent more in wages and benefits than the average worker in the U.S. private sector.

Just a sampling.

[Vance]

Presidents make 400K a year along with many other perks.  There are other people in government that make more but they are not elected positions.  Plus the real money is made after one leaves the White House.  The Clintons made a hundred million and I am sure Obama will make millions in speaking fees.

Plus they have million dollar parties and multimillion dollar vacations.

[Vance]

Or does it make you mad that God told you that you don't necessarily deserve it?

I am glad that God ALWAYS gives me more than I deserve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just saying.

[cinepro]

I am not rich, but if i started my small business, I wouldn't have a lot of customers because there is a significant number of workers that live in poverty, and they cannot afford anything. I don't know how a small business can survive with few customers.  The more money people have, the more they spend it.  Have you been to Australia? The rich in Australia do pay their employees a living wage,  Australia doesn't have a high unemployment rate. 

 

 

It should be noted that the laws of economics apply in Australia just like anywhere else.  Their minimum wage is on a sliding scale to account for youth employment and other factors.  Also, workers might be paid more, but their "buying power" is less, so the economic outcome isn't quite the same. 

 

It's impossible for anyone to take into account all the factors that go into a "fair wage".  This is one situation where it would be especially beneficial for everyone (employer and employee) to be able to negotiate the market price, since it is these kind of problems that are best solved by markets.  It would be great if we could have a group of really smart, rational, compassionate people with a hand on the dial to adjust it to be just right, but no one is that smart.

[The Nehor]

Oh, I don't know about that.http://www.npri.org/issues/publication/transparentnevada-reveals-exorbitant-salaries-of-government-employeeshttp://www.downsizinggovernment.org/overpaid-federal-workersPull quote,Just a sampling.

This is true but the numbers are skewed a bit. Civilian government workers are usually somewhat educated and are working a professional job. Comparing them to them general economy throws it off a bit. Most government workers could make more cash in them private sector. Usually government jobs offer better benefits and job security. This does mean government jobs often tend to collect those who need job security (which can attract both good and horrifically bad workers).

[Vance]

What about this LDS statement?

17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!

[cinepro]

Plus they have million dollar parties and multimillion dollar vacations.

 

And they never, ever have to sit in traffic.  It's absurd to say the President "only makes $400,000" (+ $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 nontaxable travel account, and $19,000 for entertainment).  He flies around in his own 747, with a backup plane just in case the primary one has trouble.  The perks of the job place his lifestyle in the top echelon of the super-rich.

 

Politicians in general have become very, very good at accumulating wealth over the course of their tenure.  It's probably time to retire the myth of the humble, frugal public servant at the national level of politics.

[Vance]

Or this LDS statement?

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[cinepro]

 

All hard working full time employees deserve a living wage, that is the best way the rich can help the poor. 

 

 

 

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that employees that aren't "hard working" don't deserve a "living wage"?

[MormonFreeThinker]

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that employees that aren't "hard working" don't deserve a "living wage"?

 

I am no one to judge, I cannot answer your question, all I know is that all hard working employees deserve a living wage. Do you agree?  What is better, that a single mother has three low paying jobs? or one job that pays a living wage?  

 

It's impossible for anyone to take into account all the factors that go into a "fair wage".  This is one situation where it would be especially beneficial for everyone (employer and employee) to be able to negotiate the market price, since it is these kind of problems that are best solved by markets.  It would be great if we could have a group of really smart, rational, compassionate people with a hand on the dial to adjust it to be just right, but no one is that smart.

 

But smart people like Mitt Romney agree that workers deserve a living wage. 

What do you think about the video? 

Edited November 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[The Nehor]

What about this LDS statement?17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands!

It goes well with verse before:

16 Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!

Looks like going to hell is equal opportunity. Except for the eye of the needle thing for the rich.

Edited November 3, 2014 by The Nehor

[sdc999]

Mormon FT.  

Yes, I will respond but I have been out of town for several days on vacation with zero internet and zero phone access.  Greatness.  It may take me a few hours or I will even get back to you tomorrow but one thing to think very hard about.   You have trotted out Mitt Romney several times and his belief on paying a better wage.    STAPLES.  He was not  "a" but "the" major factor in Staples success.  Staples average wage..... $8-$10/hr.  I will do more research and I'm sure I will find many more Romney companies that have those terrible low wages that he doesn't believe in.  

Romney could also give away 75% of his wealth and still never have to work another day in his life (and still live beyond comfortably).  But he won't. The LDS church could give away billions and billions and still not be affected -  but they won't.    So are either evil for not doing such?   

[MormonFreeThinker]

.  Staples average wage..... $8-$10/hr.  I will do more research and I'm sure I will find many more Romney companies that have those terrible low wages that he doesn't believe in.  

 

Make sure you read nonpartisan websites, for example, but his past life is irrelevant to the discussion, there is no need for ad hominem arguments. 

What do you think about the video? 

Edited November 3, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker