Can Mercy Satisfy Justice?

[rodheadlee]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

[Bobbieaware]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

Are you sure you don't mean "mercy cannot ROB justice?"

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[mfbukowski]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

Brilliant.

That phrase never made sense to me. It's a fight between abstractions, like cloudy personifications duking it out in the sky or something.

And the old "pay the debt" thing never mad sense either. I could never see why sin creates a "debt". To whom? How much does a sin cost?

But your idea works very well. It's concrete. I have hurt someone, who is going to restore what I took away?

Christ takes away the loss by making the wronged person know it will all be restored in the end. It takes a third person to heal both the offender and the offended.

I really like that a whole lot! Thanks so much for that!

[WysteriaBlue]

The question that it raises for me is how are the relative sins and amount of mercy and forgiveness worth?

If you rape a woman and she is shamed and damaged for life is that the same as the boy that bullies his peer on the playground.

Is a lustful thought about a woman deemed worth more than a man greedily demeaning a co-worker to get a promotion?

Is slander as bad as jealousy or pride?  Are unpure thoughts and intentions as bad as deeds even minor?

What compensation to the victims both ourselves and others is "enough" to satisfy the needs of Justice?

 

I understand that Truth exists, but the relativity and judgment again implied as being able to be understood are beyond me...

If Jesus died for the sin of "being fallen" and knowing the difference between Good and Evil..are the relativities of them still not beyond our grasp?

Can the rededication of our souls to God's mercy and forgiveness during the communion enough?

 

We are too seek Wisdom, Truth and to be more Christlike in a world of temptationa and evil spiits..and be judged when Christ comes back during the Millineum both on our thoughts and deeds..

Mercy has to be a requirement for noone can adequately judge the full extent and magnitude of the sins we perpetrate on others...

 

Just thoughts that make me say hmmmmmm.

wb

[Ahab]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing. Have I got it right?

Not sure what you mean by saying Christ cannot restore the person at the bar. Which person at the bar? More specifics, please. I am usually very slow too, but when I finally get something I get it. And I don't get what you mean yet.

[LOSTONE]

Justice is man made, but mercy can from God and thus, justice can never be satisfied without turning to God for mercy.

[Ahab]

I see it like this:

Mercy is about being lenient.

Justice is about being fair.

Forgiveness is about being tolerant of others despite their own weaknesses.

Repentance is about being remorseful of our weaknesses and trying to not make the same mistakes or errors in judgment again.

[Calm]

The question that it raises for me is how are the relative sins and amount of mercy and forgiveness worth?

If you rape a woman and she is shamed and damaged for life is that the same as the boy that bullies his peer on the playground.

Is a lustful thought about a woman deemed worth more than a man greedily demeaning a co-worker to get a promotion?

Is slander as bad as jealousy or pride?  Are unpure thoughts and intentions as bad as deeds even minor?

What compensation to the victims both ourselves and others is "enough" to satisfy the needs of Justice?

 

Eternal compensation can only be in restoring completely what has been lost.  Mortality can work out agreements for substituting, such as paying a monetary amount for a physical injury.

 

I don't see God as worrying about placing a value on something, but rather something must be replaced or in the case it cannot be replaced as pretty much everything that has emotional impact, one must turned to God, repent and ask for his help in the healing.

 

There is no need in Judgment to compare one harm to another as in wondering which is the greater victim.  That is a mortal behavior based on mortal attitudes.

 

If one does not repent, one does not contribute to the healing but that doesn't stop the victim from being able to partake completely in God's healing.  It only leaves the doer in the hands of justice.  IMO, this means that individual experiences exactly in some fashion the suffering that he caused for others (think of the scific stories where the criminal has to live over and over again the crime from the POV of the victim through the impression upon him of a mental/emotional recording of the experience), he knows on an intimate basis the suffering of the individual and the waves of change in others' lives he caused through his actions down through eternity and he understands both intellectually and emotionally all the implications of what that action did as if he had been the victim and all the others influenced while at the same time he fully experiences his own behavior again so that there is no excuse in his mind that he was perhaps didn't really mean to do whatever.  In this way, he will be able to fully recognize his guilt and live with all the consequences of it in 'payment'…and if his soul does not rebel against his evil choices and he would make the same choice again, he cannot of course progress and thus imo is doomed to a telestial existence.  He does not sin since there is no one he can sin against and/or because he recognizes there is no benefit to himself to doing so anymore, he will not experience pleasure etc. in the sin as whatever allowed him to do so has been removed in the resurrection and through eternal punishment, but he also may not desire to do any good.

 

There are some who believe even the people in the Telestial must repent, that is the only way to move forward out of hell into a glory, but I see it as a recognition of the wrong or evil, but not necessarily any true sorrow of having done that.  I believe true repenters, those who would change themselves now into a better person, who want to do right, who want to heal the other for the other's sake, not their own will at least rate the terrestrial kingdom.

Edited October 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

While it's true one might have his time on earth destroyed by another, and while it's also true the destroyer of that earth life cannot restore to the offended that which he has destroyed, the fact is that the atonement can so thoroughly COMPENSATE (not restore) for what was destroyed that it will no longer really matter if the offender cannot restore that which he has stolen.

[Calm]

"what was destroyed that it will no longer really matter if the offender cannot restore that which he has stolen"

 

To the victim who goes to God for healing, agreed

 

To the destroyer who goes to God in repentance and desire to restore that which has been lost through God, agreed

 

To the destroyer who doesn't care….he will learn to care because it will matter greatly.

[Bobbieaware]

"what was destroyed that it will no longer really matter if the offender cannot restore that which he has stolen"

 

To the victim who goes to God for healing, agreed

 

To the destroyer who goes to God in repentance and desire to restore that which has been lost through God, agreed

 

To the destroyer who doesn't care….he will learn to care because it will matter greatly.

Of course,

[WysteriaBlue]

Dear Calmoriah,

 

I have read and re-read your posts and found this aritcle talk by Dallin Oaks that I think might be relevant...

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/love-and-law?lang=eng

I have only quoted part of it below, but it seems to explain some of what is being questioned...not all...but some.  I just thought it might be worth another read...just trying to help in understanding as this is indeed a hard topic.

wb

 

God’s choicest blessings are clearly contingent upon obedience to God’s laws and commandments. The key teaching is from modern revelation:

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

This great principle helps us understand the why of many things, like justice and mercy balanced by the Atonement. It also explains why God will not forestall the exercise of agency by His children. Agency—our power to choose—is fundamental to the gospel plan that brings us to earth. God does not intervene to forestall the consequences of some persons’ choices in order to protect the well-being of other persons—even when they kill, injure, or oppress one another—for this would destroy His plan for our eternal progress. ⁸ He will bless us to endure the consequences of others’ choices, but He will not prevent those choices. ⁹

If a person understands the teachings of Jesus, he or she cannot reasonably conclude that our loving Heavenly Father or His divine Son believes that Their love supersedes Their commandments. Consider these examples.

When Jesus began His ministry, His first message was repentance. ¹⁰

When He exercised loving mercy by not condemning the woman taken in adultery, He nevertheless told her, “Go, and sin no more” (John 8:11).

Jesus taught, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

The effect of God’s commandments and laws is not changed to accommodate popular behavior or desires. If anyone thinks that godly or parental love for an individual grants the loved one license to disobey the law, he or she does not understand either love or law. The Lord declared: “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still” (D&C 88:35).

We read in modern revelation, “All kingdoms have a law given” (D&C 88:36). For example:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory” (D&C 88:22–24).

In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

[Calm]

I definitely don't disagree with anything he says.

 

I would also say that is the the love in men and women's hearts that draws them to obeying the highest laws (or even if the lowest because less love results in fear and rebellion, etc.)

Edited October 19, 2014 by calmoriah

[rodheadlee]

Not sure what you mean by saying Christ cannot restore the person at the bar. Which person at the bar? More specifics, please. I am usually very slow too, but when I finally get something I get it. And I don't get what you mean yet.

I'm sorry but it will be at least until Monday night until I can make my thoughts clearer. Bad stuff going down and I have to travel and I have had no sleep.

[bluebell]

I'm sorry but it will be at least until Monday night until I can make my thoughts clearer. Bad stuff going down and I have to travel and I have had no sleep.

 

Prayers for you rod, and whatever bad is happening.  I hope things with your wife are alright.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

I've seen no evidence that mercy, even contriteness and repentance can restore past conditions. It is almost like a law of physics that when there is an imbalance, the only thing that can restore it is reaction. The oposite is one of the most widespread heresies of the denomination I was in.

Edited October 19, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[SamIam]

I'm real slow but I finally understand why mercy can not satisfy justice. The reason is because at the Judgment Bar we have no power to restore what we have taken from someone. Christ can restore the damage done but not the person standing at the bar. If a man has his life destroyed by lies and loses everything but a few souls around him that love him the liar can not give back that which he has taken. If you believe a lie and destroy a person's life it is the same thing.  Have I got it right?

 

Rod long time no communicate.  I don't participate much anymore but your question is one that I have spent many hundreds of hours on and I believe I have some insight.  But I must go slow because there are several quesitons that must be answered before we can get to this one. In order that this information can become yours you will have to search it out but I will point to a few possibilities.  I may seem somewhat redundant in my questions and comments but it is for pushing to certain places and we cannot understand this material unless we understand its foundation. The first thing we have to do is get things in the proper order.

 

Keep in mind that an element of justice has already been served.  When Adam and Eve transgressed in the Garden, a court was convened, Adam and Eve and Satan were tried and a judgment was rendered.  The judge in this court was God the Father. God the Father gave the law that was breached, it is his domain and kingdom and thus God the Father as the law giver is the one that exacts a just penalty for the degree of the crime.  Christ is only an observer at this point participating only as required. Adam and Eve were given a just sentence of death by God the Father that is according to the laws of the Kingdom in which all are currently residing and that sentence was to fall upon all of their children that were born into this life and achieved the age of accountability.  There are key questions already found within the statements I have made. I'm not very good at knowing how to ask questions so let me know if these are confusing.

 

1.) If this judgement was to cast us from the Father's presence and the atonement is to bring us back into his presence then can we agree that a just judgment has been rendered that was according to justice and at least one place where justice cannot be robbed is relative to this particuler law?  Is there a distinction between this first law given in the garden for which we have been judged and a set of laws referenced in Alma 12:28, 31, 32?  

 

2.) What was the act or the result of the act that warranted a price of death?  Eating a fruit is symbolic of the problem but lacks the clarity of why a death penalty is required..  Think through the old testament and find the items that their law demanded a death sentence for breaking.

 

3.) Why is it that only the ones that achieve the age of accountability receive the same sentence as their parents (Adam and Eve)?  Is there a common issue that is shared by Adam and Eve and each and everyone that reaches the age of accountability? The sentence is the same so the impact must achieve the same level of transgression to achieve the same sentence of death. 

 

Keep in mind that justice has been served in the Garden BEFORE any of us came to this kingdom. In other words it is already in place.  There are acts that those who reach the age of accountability engage in that make all people who come to this earth subject to the same penalty for breaking the first law of the Garden of Eden and thus we become subject to the same death sentence as Adam and Eve.  Once subject to that law if nothing changes we need  do nothing more wrong. We would still be subject to the devil and become citizens of his kingdom. We would die because justice has been served and already a penalty has been levied.

 

This law is the first one that requires a payment which Christ is going to provide.  When he pays that price mercy will become the payment that justice demands. Thus it will satisfy the demands of justive by being what justice demands.  We aren't going to answer this question now because if we do not understand how we got to this point from the fall, we can't clearly see how God the Father and Christ work these two laws off of each other to satisfy the demands of justice.  A clue is to reverse the law, do not keep looking at how the law of justice impacts mankind but how does the law of justice work to see that Christ receives justice for shedding his innocent blood.  What does he get from justice? 

 

4.) Does Alma 12:31 and 32 make sense to you that God the Father and his Son are making a second set of laws to give to the children of men after they have already become subject to the death penalty of the first law of the Garden?  It is this second set that has to do with the way you have asked your question.  This is the set of laws that has to do with how we interact with the children of men, our brothers and sisters.  These are the laws for a temporal station while the first law of the Garden is a law of an eternal station.  This defines the level of payment required to answer the ends of the law. An eternal law requires an eternal payment.  A temporal law can be satisfied upon modified criteria if we can get the first law to not play out on us who have become subject to it. 

 

Alma 41 and 42 provide insight which applies to how men are judged for their responses to the second set of laws.   

 

1.) Thus the correct order is first the eternal law of the Garden was broken-

2.) Second it demands a payment that is eternal in nature.

3.) Third God the Father is the one that exacts the justice that cannot be robbed or he would cease to be God.

4.) Fourth the second set of laws given to man are temporal in nature.  

5.) Fifth Christ is the judge of this second set of laws and the way we respond to them. Hence God says he will forgive us through his Son becuase his son is going to pay the price to answer the first law that was broken but Christ presides over the judgments yet to be rendered that apply to the second set of laws.

 

6.) What does this verse mean as it relates to this whole conversaion of the sins Christ pays for:

 

 

Mosiah 15:12

 

12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed? 

 

 

 

 

Does this apply to the first law? or to the second set of laws?

This will take pondering and seeking answers from correct sources. Summarize what this means in your response and we can go from there.

Edited October 19, 2014 by SamIam

[mfbukowski]

I've seen no evidence that mercy, even contriteness and repentance can restore past conditions.

I don't think he is saying that.  He is saying that Christ restores what we would have received in order to regain the balance between justice and mercy.  Christ heals us and makes us whole.

[rodheadlee]

Thanks for the prayers Bluebell.

Edited October 22, 2014 by rodheadlee