Jerry Grover :: Vocanic Destructions Referenced In 3Ne

[cursor]

Jerry Grover, a geologist, has written a very interesting text that examines geological animations that occurred near the timeframe referenced in 3NE:8. I've just completed 9 maps for the soon to be published text. I'll soon update with further details regarding download options. 

[ksfisher]

Please do.

[strappinglad]

The curse of the uneditable title strikes again !

[cursor]

"Rlover" ... How did I let that happen?! 

Jerry Grover.

[Kenngo1969]

"Rlover" ... How did I let that happen?! 

Jerry Grover.

Hey, I love "R"s.  R is one of my favorite letters!

[cursor]

I have a pair of them in my name!

[ERayR]

Hey, I love "R"s.  R is one of my favorite letters!

Me too. ERayR

[cursor]

Yours are CAPs though ... not fair! I'm gonna start CAPping mine!

CurRtis Leon SoRenson

[cursor]

I must say, I do appreciate the Moderators' spelling correction to the title of this topic/thread. Thanks!

[KevinG]

Curtis, did you get to travel extensively in the lands your father (is it your father?) researched?

[cursor]

Yes, Kevin, John L. Sorenson is my father. I am his 4th son (of eight).

 

No, Kevin, I did not.

 

I don't believe that my father has traveled "extensively" through Mesoamerica, except for the very concentrated (several months) episode in the early 50s. I would like to have been there with him ... but I was less than one year old. 

 

Beyond his preliminary research (both of the actual Book of Mormon text, and of whatever research papers were available at that time), he hit the ground running ... coupled what he and his research group collectively knew ... and, enjoined by very fierce readings of Mormon's words, he located a serious number of serious archaeological sites that were not previously excavated or studied. These discoveries lead to the next thirty years of NWAF activities.

 

Later in life, I suggested to him that we make the trek, and that he teach me. At that point he voiced that he wasn't interested in any more travel. Perhaps I should have asked earlier ... in both our lifetimes. I would go now, but it ain't gonna happen (Dad's 90+ years old, and my two ½ Guatemalan children are 35+ years old). I suspect that for him, in retrospect, he would have made the effort. He owns his lifetime/collective knowledge of research. It's now up to me to do mine ... albeit via email with him (and with alternative sources). I love the guy.

 

Thanks Dad.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cursor

[cursor]

I've just finished the final maps for Jerry Grover's effort regarding realities for the destructions referenced in 3NE. As a degreed geologist, I find his findings interesting, and revealing.

 

More to come.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cursor

[Tacenda]

Cursor,

 

Not to derail, but a friend on FB just recently went on a cruise to Mexico and referred to the ruins as the BoM land. 

[cursor]

Certainly there are a number of theories about where Book of Mormon events occurred. Some make more sense than others. Some make no sense at all, frankly.

 

In my opinion a number of lands and cities that Mormon referenced were situated in what is now southern Mexico. That would include land/city Bountiful, land Desolation, land/city Zarahemla, city Mulek, city Gid, city Jershon, city Moroni, city Aaron, city Sidom, [significant] city Ammonihah, city Cumeni, city Antiparah, city Zeezrom, city Gideon, city Judea, and even Hagoth's shipbuilding and launching point (right at the south extreme of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec) ... whoa ... don't forget the hill Shim, and certainly not the hill Cumorah (which is the same hill Ramah, where the Jaredites were destroyed).

 

Other significant Book of Mormon lands would be located in what is now Guatemala. They would include land of Nephi, city Lehi-Nephi, Jerusalem (at lago de Atitlán, where I visited with my Guatemalan wife in 1978). the waters of Mormon (near el lago de Atitlán), city Helam, city Nephi, "the land of first inheritance", etc.

 

See attached PDF graphic map.

Grover_figure-1_Sorenson.pdf

Edited November 4, 2014 by cursor

[Rob Osborn]

The narrow neck in southern Mexico is an epic fail for me and the strongest evidence against a limited meso-american geography.

[cursor]

The narrow neck in southern Mexico is an epic fail for me and the strongest evidence against a limited meso-american geography.

 

Quote from JLS: "Ho-hum" 

[cursor]

The narrow neck in southern Mexico is an epic fail for me and the strongest evidence against a limited meso-american geography.

 

So ... what is your educated guess, Rob?

[Rob Osborn]

So ... what is your educated guess, Rob?

The evidence, as it is, stands to reason that the narrow neck is that of Panama. When migrations from the Nephites first began from the land south to the land north they gathered at the narrow neck in the land south then sailed in ships surpassing the narrow neck as if it was a hindrance to them in order to get to the land northward. When you combine this with the Jaredites not going into the land southward to live it makes me wonder that this narrow neck was somewhat of a barrier otherwise it would be too easy for the Nephites to of first just migrated on foot and the preceding Jaredites to just migrate south into the land southward without hindrance. The narrow neck was a body of land that was a neck that led into another land by going through and on that neck of land. The entire area where the Maya lived is no wider in reality than the isthmus of Tehuantepec. So why would they describe that as the "narrow neck" when in fact, under those loose definitions, the entire meso-american region is a narrow neck?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[cursor]

Of course there's "evidence," and then there's real, comprehensive evidence. Examine the whole picture.

 

[ OJ is innocent ... 'cause the glove didn't fit. ]

 

Mormon was born at, and grew up in, the land northward. He understood the geographic scope. He subsequently spent his adult life within the Nephite geographical core (in the northern portion of the land southward. He became a the head of the Nephite military at the ripe young age of 16. He was the primary military Nephite leader for the rest of his life (and that of the Nephite culture). He understood the geography (although not a 'degreed' cartographer). It is though his very thorough descriptions of the geographic layout (both before and after the post-crucifixion of Jesus) that we can understand the significant territories.

[Rob Osborn]

And yet there really isnt any distances given relative to the land northward and the land southward from the text. At one point, in the Nephite account, the land northward is an exceedingly great distance. If we take that to mean areas around Cumorah, the meso-american setting fails completely.

[cursor]

And yet there really isn[']t [aren't] any distances given relative to the land northward and the land southward from the text. At one point, in the Nephite account, the land northward is an exceedingly great distance.

 

So, what does that responsibly say about Nephite[/Mormon, the general, the dude] perceived distances and scope of significant Book of Mormon geography?

Edited November 5, 2014 by cursor

[Kevin Christensen]

And yet there really isnt any distances given relative to the land northward and the land southward from the text. At one point, in the Nephite account, the land northward is an exceedingly great distance. If we take that to mean areas around Cumorah, the meso-american setting fails completely.

For the record, I delved into this issue some years back in responding to Vogel and Metcalfe. See http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1458&index=14 and look for the section on Metcalfe and Vogel versus Sorenson on Book of Mormon Geography.

One notable tidbit: "But notice that the Cumorah location specifies "a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains" (Mormon 6:4) and the Helaman location specifies "large bodies of water and many rivers." Mormon's descriptions are indeed distinct, with "large bodies of water" characteristic of only the Helaman description and fitting only Teotihuacán. Vogel creates confusion by conflating the two descriptions of waters and by neglecting the other elements specific to each location (such as deforestation and cement). He combines the two locations so that he can apply the description "exceeding great distance" to the journey to Cumorah rather than to Teotihuacán. His version requires the migrants in Helaman 3:4 to march through many locations, apparently deciding that the water they found in the form of large lakes and rivers couldn't really be called "many waters." But even Vogel's report admits that the water was there."

After I wrote that article, Larry Poulson came along with what strikes me an a very impressive reading of how Limhi's explorers both managed to miss Zarahemla and to find an unoccupied Jaredite/Olmec site that they could realistically mistake for Zarahemla.

I also noticed the different uses of "exceeding".

Other uses of exceeding do not exhibit either the precision or the orders of magnitude that Vogel requires: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). "They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). "And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). "Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be?

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Rob Osborn]

For the record, I delved into this issue some years back in responding to Vogel and Metcalfe. See http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1458&index=14 and look for the section on Metcalfe and Vogel versus Sorenson on Book of Mormon Geography.

One notable tidbit: "But notice that the Cumorah location specifies "a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains" (Mormon 6:4) and the Helaman location specifies "large bodies of water and many rivers." Mormon's descriptions are indeed distinct, with "large bodies of water" characteristic of only the Helaman description and fitting only Teotihuacán. Vogel creates confusion by conflating the two descriptions of waters and by neglecting the other elements specific to each location (such as deforestation and cement). He combines the two locations so that he can apply the description "exceeding great distance" to the journey to Cumorah rather than to Teotihuacán. His version requires the migrants in Helaman 3:4 to march through many locations, apparently deciding that the water they found in the form of large lakes and rivers couldn't really be called "many waters." But even Vogel's report admits that the water was there."

After I wrote that article, Larry Poulson came along with what strikes me an a very impressive reading of how Limhi's explorers both managed to miss Zarahemla and to find an unoccupied Jaredite/Olmec site that they could realistically mistake for Zarahemla.

I also noticed the different uses of "exceeding".

Other uses of exceeding do not exhibit either the precision or the orders of magnitude that Vogel requires: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young" (1 Nephi 2:16). "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great" (1 Nephi 3:25). "They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly" (1 Nephi 18:15). "And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains" (2 Nephi 4:25). "Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites" (Alma 44:21). Also, "They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height" (Alma 53:4). Compare, "And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities" (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, "And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height" (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be?

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

If we take the Cumorah in Mexico setting and that is the place of exceeding great distance, then it is roughly the same distance away from the narrow neck as is the width of the narrow neck itself. The narrow neck is never considered an exceeding great distance. So, we can disregard anything remotely close to 100-200 miles as being exceedingly great in distance. Thus, the Mexico location for Cumorah is wrong.

Exceedingly great is defined beyond a great or above normal quantity. Even I can carry an exceedingly great amount of treasure/ heirlooms on my own body.

[Rob Osborn]

So, what does that responsibly say about Nephite[/Mormon, the general, the dude] perceived distances and scope of significant Book of Mormon geography?

Thats the point, we do not know what exactly is the scope of distances and size of nation that Mormon, as General, is referring to. For all we know the Nephite nation spanned thousands of miles. Certainly, the Inca, as a nation, spread over thousands of miles when the Spanish explorers discovered them. I m inclined to believe the Nephites and Lamanites were a much more advanced and larger civilization than the Inca. In fact, most Inca sites show two distinct eras of building with the earlier (Nephite?) building being far superior than what the Inca were capable of.

[cursor]

... 

Edited November 11, 2014 by cursor