tonie Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Was there a man named Benjamin F Winchester, who is associated with the early history or even beginnings of the Church? Fairmormon provides two references to a Benjamin F Winchester "Another account comes from Benjamin F. Winchester, who was a friend of Joseph Smith’s, an LDS leader in the early 1840s." Another Fairmormon article identifies a Benjamin F Winchester as a excommunicated member who was bitterly opposed to plural marriage; the time frame still appears to be early history of the Church. Sources not associate with Fairmormon suggest that a Benjamin F Winchester was at the Kirkland Temple dedication. Is a Benjamin F Winchester a person associated wtih the founding of the Church? Despite later being excommunicated?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Was there a man named Benjamin F Winchester, who is associated with the early history or even beginnings of the Church? Fairmormon provides two references to a Benjamin F Winchester "Another account comes from Benjamin F. Winchester, who was a friend of Joseph Smith’s, an LDS leader in the early 1840s." Another Fairmormon article identifies a Benjamin F Winchester as a excommunicated member who was bitterly opposed to plural marriage; the time frame still appears to be early history of the Church. Sources not associate with Fairmormon suggest that a Benjamin F Winchester was at the Kirkland Temple dedication. Is a Benjamin F Winchester a person associated wtih the founding of the Church? Despite later being excommunicated?Just curious: Are you getting Winchester's name from Grant Palmer's latest attack piece on Joseph Smith? Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Duncan Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Wasn't he on M*A*S*H?!!!! according to the Mormon Interpreter article there was a Benjamin Winchester but no Benjamin F. Winchester
tonie Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Just curious: Are you getting Winchester's name from Grant Palmer's latest attack piece on Joseph Smith? I have quoted Fairmormon.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) I have quoted Fairmormon.Is Palmer's piece what sent you to FairMormon to look him up? Whom do you mean by "sources not associated with FairMormon"? Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Boanerges Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I don't know that FAIR is in the habit of making up people. They are good at spinning, but I don't think they fabricate.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Wasn't he on M*A*S*H?!!!! according to the Mormon Interpreter article there was a Benjamin Winchester but no Benjamin F. WinchesterHere's a link to that piece in Interpreter: a Journal of Mormon Scripture. It is by Brian C. Hales and Greg Smith and is titled: "A Response to Grant Palmer’s “Sexual Allegations against Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Polygamy in Nauvoo”. Here's the portion about Winchester: Throughout Palmer’s essay, several problematic issues can be readily discerned:1. Factual inaccuracies. For example, on page 8 he speaks of a man, “Benjamin F. Winchester,” but there is no such person. Church history participants included “Benjamin F. Johnson” and “Benjamin Winchester” but no “Benjamin F. Winchester.” This might seem a nitpicky criticism, but it is an example of how poorly Palmer’s essay has been constructed and edited. It also suggests a reliance on secondary sources rather than a consultation of the original documents. Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) I don't know that FAIR is in the habit of making up people. They are good at spinning, but I don't think they fabricate.What FairMormon does is respond to anti-Mormons who typically pursue spinning as an advanced art form. Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Here's a Wikipedia entry on Benjamin Winchester. It seems to be fairly factual. Just sayin' that if all it was was information on Winchester that tonie was after, she could have saved some time and trouble with a simple Google search.
Bob Crockett Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 It is an interesting question as to how this error can be repeated over and over again. Here we have FAIR making the error: http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Early_womanizer
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) It is an interesting question as to how this error can be repeated over and over again.Here we have FAIR making the error: http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Early_womanizerApparently Fair Wiki picked it up from Richard Van Wagoner. (I'm confident that if Roger sees this, he'll fix it fairly soon.) I think the point made in the Interpreter piece is that a scholarly paper such as Palmer purports to produce ought not perpetuate such an error. The author should be expected to consult primary -- not secondary -- sources, and should see that it's carefully edited. Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
tonie Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Here's a Wikipedia entry on Benjamin Winchester. It seems to be fairly factual.Just sayin' that if all it was was information on Winchester that tonie was after, she could have saved some time and trouble with a simple Google search.Please don't move the target; especially when you are trying to suggest that I did not search. Where is the wikipedia entry on Bejamin F Winchester?
tonie Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 It is an interesting question as to how this error can be repeated over and over again.Here we have FAIR making the error: http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Early_womanizerWhat is the error; is it the use Benjamin F. Winchester instead of Benjamin Winchester?
Bob Crockett Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Apparently Fair Wiki picked it up from Richard Van Wagoner. (I'm confident that if Roger sees this, he'll fix it fairly soon.) I think the point made in the Interpreter piece is that a scholarly paper such as Palmer purports to produce ought not perpetuate such an error. The author should be expected to consult primary -- not secondary -- sources, and should see that it's carefully edited. Van Wagoner uses this source on page 243 of his book: Benjamin F. Winchester, "Primitive Mormonism -- Personal Narrative of It," Salt Lake Tribune, 22 Sept. 1889. The Salt Lake Tribune doesn't make this error. Also, I have quibbles with Van Wagoner's citation form. http://udn.lib.utah.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/slt11/id/13212/rec/228 I have had long-held objections to Mr. Van Wagoner's scholarship, particularly during the Nauvoo period. He cites anti-Mormon newspapers as authority for the inner workings of the Church hierarchy. Who made the FAIR error? Greg Smith? The same author in the Interpreter piece? Edited October 14, 2014 by Bob Crockett
sethpayne Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Is Palmer's piece what sent you to FairMormon to look him up? Whom do you mean by "sources not associated with FairMormon"? What relevance does that have to the original question? Will it change the answer? Edited October 14, 2014 by sethpayne
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 What relevance does that have to the original question? Will it change the answer?Just wanted tonie to lay all her cards on the table. I suspected she was setting up an ambush. I don't like that sort of thing.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Van Wagoner uses this source on page 243 of his book: Benjamin F. Winchester, "Primitive Mormonism -- Personal Narrative of It," Salt Lake Tribune, 22 Sept. 1889.The Salt Lake Tribune doesn't make this error. Also, I have quibbles with Van Wagoner's citation form. http://udn.lib.utah.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/slt11/id/13212/rec/228I have had long-held objections to Mr. Van Wagoner's scholarship, particularly during the Nauvoo period. He cites anti-Mormon newspapers as authority for the inner workings of the Church hierarchy.Who made the FAIR error? Greg Smith? The same author in the Interpreter piece?If your putting the question to me, I'll have to respond that I don't know. Perhaps Roger could tell us. The thing with wikis is that they are crowd-sourced in their writing and editing. So it could have been any of a number of people.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 What is the error; is it the use Benjamin F. Winchester instead of Benjamin Winchester?The quote I provided from Interpreter should answer that.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Here's a Wikipedia entry on Benjamin Winchester. It seems to be fairly factual. Just sayin' that if all it was was information on Winchester that tonie was after, she could have saved some time and trouble with a simple Google search. Please don't move the target; especially when you are trying to suggest that I did not search.Where is the wikipedia entry on Bejamin F Winchester?Click on my link. Anytime something appears in blue type in these posts, it is a hyperlink that will take you somewhere else. So if you click on the word Here's in my post above, it will take you to the Wikipedia entry. Edited to add: There is no "Benjamin F. Winchester" in Church history, if that's what you're asking. Again, see the quote I provided from the Interpreter article. Edited October 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Wiki Wonka Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Apparently Fair Wiki picked it up from Richard Van Wagoner. (I'm confident that if Roger sees this, he'll fix it fairly soon.) I think the point made in the Interpreter piece is that a scholarly paper such as Palmer purports to produce ought not perpetuate such an error. The author should be expected to consult primary -- not secondary -- sources, and should see that it's carefully edited. The FairMormon articles were citing Van Wagoner, who used "Benjamin F. Winchester." The FairMormon articles have been corrected. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 The FairMormon articles were citing Van Wagoner, who used "Benjamin F. Winchester." The FairMormon articles have been corrected.I knew I could count on you.
Calm Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Was there a man named Benjamin F Winchester, who is associated with the early history or even beginnings of the Church? Fairmormon provides two references to a Benjamin F Winchester "Another account comes from Benjamin F. Winchester, who was a friend of Joseph Smith’s, an LDS leader in the early 1840s." Another Fairmormon article identifies a Benjamin F Winchester as a excommunicated member who was bitterly opposed to plural marriage; the time frame still appears to be early history of the Church. Sources not associate with Fairmormon suggest that a Benjamin F Winchester was at the Kirkland Temple dedication. Is a Benjamin F Winchester a person associated wtih the founding of the Church? Despite later being excommunicated?If you were concerned with FM perpetuating an error, all you had to do was write them. What is the purpose of your thread? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 If you were concerned with FM perpetuating an error, all you had to do was write them. What is the purpose of your thread?That's a question I've had ever since I first saw the thread.
Wiki Wonka Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Van Wagoner uses this source on page 243 of his book: Benjamin F. Winchester, "Primitive Mormonism -- Personal Narrative of It," Salt Lake Tribune, 22 Sept. 1889.The Salt Lake Tribune doesn't make this error. Also, I have quibbles with Van Wagoner's citation form. http://udn.lib.utah.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/slt11/id/13212/rec/228I have had long-held objections to Mr. Van Wagoner's scholarship, particularly during the Nauvoo period. He cites anti-Mormon newspapers as authority for the inner workings of the Church hierarchy.Who made the FAIR error? Greg Smith? The same author in the Interpreter piece? Yes, the errors were in citations from Van Wagoner in several draft chapters of Greg Smith's unpublished polygamy book that we have included in the Wiki, so Greg (being one of the co-authors of the Interpreter article), would have eventually caught them and corrected them on his own. However, I actually saw this issue mentioned in a different forum a few days ago (I cannot recall which one), and meant to check it out. Seeing this thread reminded me again that it needed to be checked and fixed. Greg and I are involved in a massive Wiki project right now creating the new "FairMormon Evidence" Wiki ( http://en.fairmormonevidence.org/Main_Page ), so we've been a bit busy. 1
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