John L. Sorenson's "sourcebook"

[Brant Gardner]

However, and this goes to the deeper question which interests me more as a source for academic treatment, it appears to me that the Brethren, in the past, collectively have viewed the Hill Cumorah location as doctrinal and the hemispheric model doctrinal.  I'm interested in the reasons for the shift.  So therein we disagree.    I view "doctrine" as something not necessarily revealed from on high but something the Church has directed to be taught the Saints.   So, for instance, for a long period of time the Article on Marriage was doctrine although the Church later disavowed it.  I view doctrine as something lesser than "eternal truth."    Doctrine is something that the Church can get wrong, just as Nephi asserts that not all he writes may be accurate.  It is an eternal truth that the Book of Mormon was revealed to Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni; maybe not all therein is an eternal truth.  For instance, the Book of Mormon for many years stated that Lehi landed off the coast of Chili but that reference was removed with the Talmage rework.

If you are suggesting that there were many brethren who have taught both the hemispheric model of the Book of Mormon and the New York hill as Cumorah, we certainly agree. If you are suggesting that they may have taught that and that it need not have been representative of actual Book of Mormon geography or events, we also agree. If you are suggesting that the historical development of these ideas is, in itself, an interesting study, we agree.

 

If we agree on all of that, I'm no longer certain of where we disagree.

 

I note with keen interest cursor's statement below that Elder Mark E Peterson opposed the Sorenson Ensign articles, a fact I hadn't previously known.   He's certainly a credible enough source although citing to a internet board where the thread may disappear isn't all that credible.   The fact that the articles were published over Elder Peterson's objection yields a number of interesting and likely conclusions.   

I happened to be around for a little of this history. In the early 70's Dr. Sorenson had given classes to the 12 on Book of Mormon geography and anthropology. All began the classes, but only a few finished due to their commitments. The response was sufficiently positive that there was to be a joint publication of the book with articles in the Ensign. I was in Dr. Sorenson's office soon after word came to him that the publication was postponed. Although there wasn't a specific reason, he knew that Elder Peterson hadn't signed off on the project (being one who had to leave early in the classes). The Sunday before I was in Dr. Sorenson's office Elder Peterson (who wrote the editorials in the Church News) had a scathing denunciation of anyone who might suggest that there were two Cumorahs. Although he didn't mention Sorenson, Dr. Sorenson was pretty sure that article was triggered by the question posed to Peterson about Dr. Sorenson's book and the articles. Both the book and the articles were eventually published, but over a decade later and after Elder Peterson's passing.

 

What also interests me in this analysis is the manner in which the competing geographic advocates stake out their respective positions.   We've seen how Meldrum can get quite nasty and accusatory in his views, but even in this thread we see similar treatment from a frequent poster and defender of the Sorenson model.  

Unfortunately, many substitute heated language for reasoned discourse. I agree that we would be better off without the heat that produces no light.

[Bob Crockett]

Well that is very enlightening. It shows that some of the Brethren but not all have taken hard lines on the Cumorah question.

Yet, Sorenson's articles do not squarely take a two Cumorah question.

[Bob Crockett]

Is it that you can dish it out, but can't take it?  I recall Bob Dylan responding to a catcall of "Judas!" from the audience when he went electric.  Said Dylan into the mike:  "Liar!  I don't believe you."  Very strange.

I regret conveying the impression that I have been attacking you or dishing it out to you. You have my apologies where I have called you a liar. I just don't recall ever doing that but I am going to be turning 60 this year and am planning on moving into the retirement home down the street from my house. Edited October 14, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[cursor]

Well that is very enlightening. It shows that some of the Brethren but not all have taken hard lines on the Cumorah question.

Yet, Sorenson's articles do not squarely take a two Cumorah question.

 

Actually, they do. Particularly in the first issue. As previously noted, read page 30, and its associated footnote 11. After that, read WAY beyond what JLS has written since that 2-part Ensign series. If you're suggesting that he doesn't take a strong stand on the concept of Cumorah/Ramah (the final battleground of both the Nephites and the Jaredites) being close to the isthmus of Tehuantepec (and not in NY), then you'll just have to broaden your library ... and actually read the texts. 

 

Dad will be 91 in April. He's just published Mormon's Codex, an 826 page treatise that clearly identifies Mesoamerica as the scene for ALL of the events that are referenced in the Book of Mormon ... including Mormon's referenced hill Cumorah/Ramah.

 

Go a head and start with the pair of Ensign articles that were published in the September and October issues of the Ensign. But don't forget to move on from there to An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (published by Deseret Book). Oh yeah, don't leave out the very core of Book of Mormon geographical study ... Mormon's Map — a work that evaluates Mormon's geographic descriptions within the Book of Mormon itself. Then, don't forget to thoroughly consume The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Source Book. And, one cannot leave out Images of Ancient America (of which Hugh Nibley identified as the finest treatise of Book of Mormon cultural identity). Only after totally immersing oneself in these multiple textual references can one offer reasonably credible criticism.  

 

I'm sincerely sorry that you feel inclined to move into a retirement home at just 60 years old. I actually thought that perhaps you were about half way (in age) between me and my dad. 

 

Personally, I'll be 62 in November of this year ... and can't imagine where the end might be (although I know that there is an actual end to this life). I've just enlisted in a Ventura County basketball league that should carry me well into my 62nd year.

 

Again, Dad is 91 years old ... and still cookin'. Just two weeks ago I spent two hours jawing about this that and the other. I'd swear he's just 40. Wait ... and I'm nearly 62?! What gives?!

 

Last weekend we learned that an aunt of my wife had passed away (she was 86, God bless her soul). We made a 3-day, very quick, drive to UT to invest (in family). We had the privilege to spend no less than four hours with Dad ... reminiscing ... talking about current events ... talking about our soon to be published Mormon's Atlas, and about whatever.

 

New York had nothing to do with any BofM's final battles. It just happened to be the place where Moroni (Mormon's son) placed the final record in a stone box.

Edited October 14, 2014 by cursor

[Bob Crockett]

Is there one sentence in the Ensign articles which says that there are two Cumorahs, or that the Hill is located in Mexico? If one is required to make a number of deductions from vague statements, I don't buy it.

I may turning 60 this year but I'm running my fourth 100 mile ultrarun this weekend in my brother's Pony Express 100 west of Lehi. I came in 8th last year.

My former law partner, John Welch (father of Jack Welch) is 93 and still skiis.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Tacenda]

Bob, Cursor and Dr. Sorenson (if you read this), you're amazing. I'll be lucky to reach my 60's and be cognizant, negative as that is.

Bob, you were only kidding about a home, lol. Not me. Hoping for a cure soon for the dreaded "A" word.

I have a reprint of the BoM 1830 edition. I'm going to dust it off and do what I should have done long ago and read it to investigate more about it origins, any of you read the chapter form book?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Tacenda

[Bob Crockett]

No but I love Grant Hardy's version of the BoM.

[cursor]

Is there one sentence in the Ensign articles which says that there are two Cumorahs, or that the Hill is located in Mexico? If one is required to make a number of deductions from vague statements, I d

on't buy it.

 

 And just how many sentences should there be regarding the topic? Is one not enough? Certainly the logic for Cumorah/Ramah being close to the "narrow neck" is clearly explained. Again, ... read his later writings. 

[cursor]

Keep kickin' it Tacenda. Put it in gear and drive forward. It's the resistance to opposing forces that makes you stronger, every day.Push, pull ... push, pull. Following the GOYA principle (something that I made up) will get you there ... "Get Off Your ***." 

[Tacenda]

Oh, I get pushed and prodded every day by a very caring hubby to get to the gym. Thanks for the GOYA approach, going to think of it often!

[Bob Crockett]

And just how many sentences should there be regarding the topic? Is one not enough? Certainly the logic for Cumorah/Ramah being close to the "narrow neck" is clearly explained. Again, ... read his later writings.

No it isn't. As I have demonstrated above, the Hill Cumorah is only 60 miles from the Niagara Isthmus, a narrower neck of land than the Darien.

[cursor]

LOL ...

Place what he says in reference to the content of the 2-part article. Certainly that can't be too hard for you, Bob. The whole 2-part article is about Mesoamerica ...  not about North America, Given that, a single statement about the location of Cumorah/Ramah should be clear.

 

Oh, and don't neglect to read the rest of his stuff.

Edited October 14, 2014 by cursor

[Bob Crockett]

LMAO. It isn't hard. You want me to draw the conclusion that the NY Hill Cumorah is nowhere near a narrow neck of land and thus doesn't fit the Book of Mormon description. Dr. Sorenson makes that argument explicitly.

I tell you that the Niagara isthmus is within a day or two of the NY Hill Cumorah. Further, I can cite to many accounts which suggest that the Darien isthmus is so wide that aborigines did not view it as a narrow neck of land.

Again, I don't really care one way or the other but I seriously doubt Dr. Sorenson's stretches.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Freedom]

LMAO. It isn't hard. You want me to draw the conclusion that the NY Hill Cumorah is nowhere near a narrow neck of land and thus doesn't fit the Book of Mormon description. Dr. Sorenson makes that argument explicitly.

I tell you that the Niagara isthmus is within a day or two of the NY Hill Cumorah. Further, I can cite to many accounts which suggest that the Darien isthmus is so wide that aborigines did not view it as a narrow neck of land.

Again, I don't really care one way or the other but I seriously doubt Dr. Sorenson's stretches.

uh, um, never mind. 

[cursor]

LMAO. It isn't hard. You want me to draw the conclusion that the NY Hill Cumorah is nowhere near a narrow neck of land and thus doesn't fit the Book of Mormon description. Dr. Sorenson makes that argument explicitly.

I tell you that the Niagara isthmus is within a day or two of the NY Hill Cumorah. Further, I can cite to many accounts which suggest that the Darien isthmus is so wide that aborigines did not view it as a narrow neck of land.

Again, I don't really care one way or the other but I seriously doubt Dr. Sorenson's stretches.

 

Well, certainly you are the ultimate authority on the subject. 

Wait ...

you're not an anthropologist,

you're not an archaeologist,

you're not a geologist,

you're not a cartographer,

you've not had anything published in the Ensign on the subject of Book of Mormon geography,

you didn't write Mormon's Map (nor anything like it),

you didn't write The Geography of Book of Mormon Events (nor anything like it),

you didn't write An Ancient American Setting (nor anything like it),

you didn't write Mormon's Codex (nor anything like it).

 

What exactly are your qualifications for speaking on the subject of Book of Mormon geography, Bob? How is it that your criticisms of John L. Sorenson carry any weight at all?

Edited October 15, 2014 by cursor

[Bob Crockett]

All true observations.  I am not an expert archaeologist or anthropologist with expertise in Native American sites.  I only hire them and direct their work and edit their reports.   This article describes my work on a 5000 year pre-Chumash site.  http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jun/20/opinion/op-gibson20

 

I don't mean to offend.  I merely am working on a sociological analysis of trends in geographic studies, and my tentative finding is that there isn't enough there to pin Joseph Smith to the crime of a MesoAmerican theory.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Freedom]

just to be clear, the requirement of a narrow neck of land is only one of dozens of requirements. The existence of a narrow neck of land is not enough to place the events of the Book of Mormon. If it were, then i could prove that Mormon lived in Vancouver BC. 

[cursor]

Yes, Freedom, indeed there exists a complex net of relationships that must be considered in any serious evaluation of where Book of Mormon events occurred. Primary in that investigation should be what is offered by Mormon himself ... a senior military mind, a scribe, an historian ... who reveals throughout the text geographical information both before and after the destruction reported in 3NE chap 8.

[Bob Crockett]

just to be clear, the requirement of a narrow neck of land is only one of dozens of requirements. The existence of a narrow neck of land is not enough to place the events of the Book of Mormon. If it were, then i could prove that Mormon lived in Vancouver BC. 

 

Let's revisit why we've been focusing upon the "narrow neck of land."  These are cursor's various statements which refute the notion that the geography of the HIll Cumorah may be ascertained from things other than the narrow neck of land:

 

Post 1209426975

The hill in upstate NY where Moroni hid the plates and where Joseph Smith received them is not anywhere near the "narrow neck of land."  Post 1209425805

The Cumorah of the Nephites and the Ramah of the Jaredites were the same hill (Ether 15:11

> Bob, you can't contend against this.

This area, covered with bones (Omni 1:22; Mosiah 8:8; Mosiah 21:26–27; etc.) and also a “land of many waters, rivers, and fountains” (Morm. 6:4; Ether 15:8 ), was in the land of Desolation, which bordered on the land Bountiful at the narrow neck of land (Alma 22:29–32).

> Bob, you can't disagree with this, reasonably (if so, please offer).

In Mormon 3 through 6, it becomes clear that the final battles of the Nephites were localized, centering largely in the general area of the city of Desolation, which was in the land of Desolation “by the narrow pass which led into the land southward” (Morm. 3:5, 7).

>Bob, how can you possibly argue? If you can please submit any plausible alternative. 

Cumorah, the final battlefield of the Nephites and Lamanites, was near the narrow neck of land." 

Basically the hill Cumorah & hill Ramah are very close to the narrow neck of land. If NY is the final battleground, then where is the narrow neck of land, referred to by Mormon? Seriously ... please answer.

 

 

 

 

 "And just how many sentences should there be regarding the topic? Is one not enough? Certainly the logic for Cumorah/Ramah being close to the "narrow neck" is clearly explained. Again, ... read his later writings. "  

 

 

 

1209425519:  cursor reveals that the Diggings article should be read to say that the Hill Cumorah is only "near the narrow neck of land."  

 

 

 

Turning to Dr. Sorenson himself, he ties much of his theory to the "narrow neck of land."   He says that it must be "a day and a half's journey."   (Ancient, p. 17.)  

 

Thus, through a number of challenges, some reaching the level of friendly taunts, I have been asked many times the same question:  Why isn't the NY Hill Cumorah near the narrow neck of land?   No other factor is mentioned in the recent days.  Not the "dozens of requirements" you assert.

 

What is the factual reality?

 

The Darien isthmus is over 50 miles.  According to the journals of the surveyors of the railroad for the Panama Canal, it took a week to traverse with horses, and it was deadly in terms of disease.   Tens of thousands of Europeans, Africans and Indians died, probably more, when the French attempted to build the canal in the late nineteenth century.   During the gold rush, tens of thousands of people died in the Isthmus.  By contrast, yellow fever and malaria were much less prevalent in Nicaragua where both the French and the U.S contemplated a canal.  Yet, nothing is mentioned in the Book of Mormon about this difficulty.  

 

The Niagara Isthmus is 20 miles or so.  A day and half's journey across.   Only 60 miles from the Hill Cumorah, or so.  Not a place where disease and death by disease would be as likely.   But given that a day's journey was about 12 miles, this Isthmus certainly fits the description.   And although the Isthmus is east to west, the seas it divides are east and west, thus matching the Book of Mormon's description more perfectly that the Atlantic and the Pacific. 

 

But what is more remarkable about this dialogue is that I have repeatedly responded to the challenge that I produce a "narrow neck of land" within close proximity to the Hill Cumorah.  Nobody is willing to acknowledge that I point to the most obvious isthmus. 

 

And now, you say, we should look at other lesser factors.  

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[ksfisher]

 

Let's revisit why we've been focusing upon the "narrow neck of land."  These are cursor's various statements which refute the notion that the geography of the HIll Cumorah may be ascertained from things other than the narrow neck of land:

 

 

 

Turning to Dr. Sorenson himself, he ties much of his theory to the "narrow neck of land."   He says that it must be "a day and a half's journey."   (Ancient, p. 17.)  

 

Thus, through a number of challenges, some reaching the level of friendly taunts, I have been asked many times the same question:  Why isn't the NY Hill Cumorah near the narrow neck of land?   No other factor is mentioned in the recent days.  Not the "dozens of requirements" you assert.

 

What is the factual reality?

 

The Darien isthmus is over 50 miles.  According to the journals of the surveyors of the railroad for the Panama Canal, it took a week to traverse with horses, and it was deadly in terms of disease.   Tens of thousands of Europeans, Africans and Indians died, probably more, when the French attempted to build the canal in the late nineteenth century.   During the gold rush, tens of thousands of people died in the Isthmus.  By contrast, yellow fever and malaria were much less prevalent in Nicaragua where both the French and the U.S contemplated a canal.  Yet, nothing is mentioned in the Book of Mormon about this difficulty.  

 

The Niagara Isthmus is 20 miles or so.  A day and half's journey across.   Only 60 miles from the Hill Cumorah, or so.  Not a place where disease and death by disease would be as likely.   But given that a day's journey was about 12 miles, this Isthmus certainly fits the description.   And although the Isthmus is east to west, the seas it divides are east and west, thus matching the Book of Mormon's description more perfectly that the Atlantic and the Pacific. 

 

But what is more remarkable about this dialogue is that I have repeatedly responded to the challenge that I produce a "narrow neck of land" within close proximity to the Hill Cumorah.  Nobody is willing to acknowledge that I point to the most obvious isthmus. 

 

And now, you say, we should look at other lesser factors.  

 

 

Sorenson has never proposed that the Isthmus of Darien is the narrow neck referred to in the Book of Mormon.  The Isthmus of Tehuantepec is the proposed location.

Edited October 15, 2014 by ksfisher

[Bob Crockett]

Sorenson has never proposed that the Isthmus of Darien is the narrow neck referred to in the Book of Mormon.  The Isthmus of Tehuantepec is the proposed location.

Right. I guess I've forgotten that fact as I focused on the narrowest isthmus.  Once again, I've demonstrated that although I have read Dr. Sorenson's books many times, I have not focused on these types of details.  I've merely responded to the challenge that there is no narrow neck of land in the New York area.

 

It is 120 miles across, and not likely to be a day and half across. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[ksfisher]

Right. I guess I've forgotten that fact as I focused on the narrowest isthmus.  Once again, I've demonstrated that although I have read Dr. Sorenson's books many times, I have not focused on these types of details.  I've merely responded to the challenge that there is no narrow neck of land in the New York area.

 

It is 120 miles across, and not likely to be a day and half across. 

 

If you have an opportunity to read Mormon's Codex it would be helpful in understanding why Sorenson places the narrow neck and narrow pass where he does.  Perhaps Cursor could point out specific passages in the book that would be of the most benefit.  I haven't read Mormon's Map in several years, perhaps the same information is in there.

Edited October 15, 2014 by ksfisher

[Bob Crockett]

If you have an opportunity to read Mormon's Codex it would be helpful in understanding why Sorenson places the narrow neck and narrow pass where he does.  Perhaps Cursor could point out specific passages in the book that would be of the most benefit.  I haven't read Mormon's Map in several years, perhaps the same information is in there.

I have it although for some strange reason can't find it in my house.  

 

I don't dispute the fact that there is an isthmus of sorts in Mexico.  What I do dispute is Dr. Sorenson's assertion that there is no narrow neck of land near the NY Cumorah.  Wouldn't an isthmus with Niagara Falls be something near many waters?

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[cursor]

What a freakin' joke.

Wake up Bob.

[Bob Crockett]

OK ---

 

Perhaps you might acknowledge that there is a narrow neck of land only a few miles away from NY Hill Cumorah?   

 

I appreciate the information you have been providing.  It has been excellent.  While geography doesn't interest me, the cultural aspects of the study area is interesting and worth study.

 

Thanks!

Edited October 15, 2014 by Bob Crockett