Dying With Dignity

[strappinglad]

I noticed this article and pondered my response. My views have changed over the years as I have seen the suffering of people at the end of life. Is there a theological reason why we MUST allow people to suffer until they die ' naturally ' ? Personally I tend toward allowing a choice if strict protocols are followed.

https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/one-woman-s-quest-to-die-with-dignity%E2%80%94and-what-it-means-for-us-all-125810888.html

Edited October 8, 2014 by strappinglad

[ksfisher]

I noticed this article and pondered my response. My views have changed over the years as I have seen the suffering of people at the end of life. Is there a theological reason why we MUST allow people to suffer until they die ' naturally ' ? Personally I tend toward allowing a choice if strict protocols are followed.

https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/one-woman-s-quest-to-die-with-dignity%E2%80%94and-what-it-means-for-us-all-125810888.html

 

"Thou shalt not kill" would seem to apply.

[Buckeye]

I will preface this question by saying that I am quite serious that I do not know the answer. But I believe raising the question could add important insight into this issue. Please be respectful.

 

Question: Did Christ play any voluntary role in his death?

 

Over the years, I have heard statements in church circles that suggest Christ had some choice as to his death, including the timing. I have been taught (without knowing if this is true) that when one is crucified one dies by asphyxiation when one chooses to no longer endure the pain that comes with pushing/pulling oneself up to breathe.  I have also been taught that Christ could have prevented his death at any point (including by calling forth angels) but chose not to do so. Granted, Christ likely had a better understanding of his life's mission than any of us, but could it not be possible that some of us reasonably conclude our mission is done and there is no point in simply prolonging our own suffering?

[The Nehor]

Dying with dignity is overrated when dying without dignity can be hilarious.

 

[ksfisher]

21.3.3

Euthanasia

Euthanasia is defined as deliberately putting to death a person who is suffering from an incurable condition or disease. A person who participates in euthanasia, including assisting someone to commit suicide, violates the commandments of God. (See also 21.3.8.)

 

 

Handbook 2

[JLHPROF]

Murder and suicide are still considered the most grievous of sin (most of the time).

It is against the commandments and against Church teachings to practice euthanasia.

 

However, just as the priesthood can be used to administer for healing, I personally believe it can also be used to release a suffering person - to turn them over to God as it were.  I have heard of cases of this being done.

[Buzzard]

Can anyone say "slippery slope?".  Look what is happening in the Netherlands, where assisted suicide has been around for over a decade:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/03/the-dutch-debate-doctor-assisted-suicide-for-depression.html

I've had this talk with my oncologist.  Pain medications today can make the last few weeks a lot more comfortable than used to be the case.  So the last few weeks of my life, I'm addicted to morphine, so what?  I'm not looking forward to those last days, which since I discontinued chemo, not because of a death wish, but because it's not slowing the disease's progression, are looming closer than ever before, but it's not my call to make.  This young lady who has just told her husband, family, and God that she is checking out on November 1st is taking unto herself that which she has not been given. Like a lot of things we discuss here, just because it's legal doesn't make it moral. 

[sethpayne]

I noticed this article and pondered my response. My views have changed over the years as I have seen the suffering of people at the end of life. Is there a theological reason why we MUST allow people to suffer until they die ' naturally ' ? Personally I tend toward allowing a choice if strict protocols are followed.

https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/one-woman-s-quest-to-die-with-dignity%E2%80%94and-what-it-means-for-us-all-125810888.html

 

Given the state of modern medicine wherein it is possible to keep people "alive" even without the most basic mental and physical capacity, I too think we need to take a fresh look at this.

 

I, like others, worry that we may make suicide too easy; too acceptable.  So we must be careful.  However, when a terminal patient is nearing the end of their life I can't imagine HF having any trouble with that person choosing to enter the next life after having the opportunity to say goodbye to family in a dignified and proud way.  I see no moral value in keeping people alive when their quality of life is so low -- and likely to remain so -- such that they aren't really human anymore.  If you are tied to machines, can't speak, write or eat or if you brain is essentially dead, I would say your moral probation is over.  "Enduring to the end" in such circumstances seems cruel; especially when HF has given us the ability to avoid this type of ending in a kind, compassionate way.

[ksfisher]

Given the state of modern medicine wherein it is possible to keep people "alive" even without the most basic mental and physical capacity, I too think we need to take a fresh look at this.

 

I, like others, worry that we may make suicide too easy; too acceptable.  So we must be careful.  However, when a terminal patient is nearing the end of their life I can't imagine HF having any trouble with that person choosing to enter the next life after having the opportunity to say goodbye to family in a dignified and proud way.  I see no moral value in keeping people alive when their quality of life is so low -- and likely to remain so -- such that they aren't really human anymore.  If you are tied to machines, can't speak, write or eat or if you brain is essentially dead, I would say your moral probation is over.  "Enduring to the end" in such circumstances seems cruel; especially when HF has given us the ability to avoid this type of ending in a kind, compassionate way.

 

21.3.8

Prolonging Life

When severe illness strikes, members should exercise faith in the Lord and seek competent medical assistance. However, when dying becomes inevitable, it should be seen as a blessing and a purposeful part of eternal existence. Members should not feel obligated to extend mortal life by means that are unreasonable. These judgments are best made by family members after receiving wise and competent medical advice and seeking divine guidance through fasting and prayer.

 

Handbook 2

[Nevo]

I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I don't think dying naturally is ever undignified.

[sethpayne]

21.3.8

Prolonging Life

When severe illness strikes, members should exercise faith in the Lord and seek competent medical assistance. However, when dying becomes inevitable, it should be seen as a blessing and a purposeful part of eternal existence. Members should not feel obligated to extend mortal life by means that are unreasonable. These judgments are best made by family members after receiving wise and competent medical advice and seeking divine guidance through fasting and prayer.

 

Handbook 2

 

 

Thanks for sharing, kfisher.

 

In the handful of situations I've known of it seems to me that sometimes letting go of this life is more difficult for the family members than the person actually suffering and dying.  

[Buckeye]

Thanks for sharing, kfisher.

 

In the handful of situations I've known of it seems to me that sometimes letting go of this life is more difficult for the family members than the person actually suffering and dying.  

 

I've seen the same affect with adoptions. Sometimes grandparents step in to prevent an adoption even though the birth mother wants to give the child up.

[sethpayne]

I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I don't think dying naturally is ever undignified.

 

If you had the choice would you rather:

 

1.  Spend the last 2 years of your life connected to machines, unable to speak, unable to use the bathroom, unable to read, etc...

 

OR

 

2. Take special time to say goodbye to loved ones, get all affairs in order, and die at a point where you are still capable of making that choice

 

I agree with you that natural death can be quite dignified.  But it can also be horrible and needlessly painful -- both emotionally and physically -- for the person(s) involved.  I can tell you personally that I would rather go out on my own terms rather than potentially burden my family emotionally, financially, etc...  But of course there are not hard and fast rules.  Every situation requires unique reflection.

[sethpayne]

I've seen the same affect with adoptions. Sometimes grandparents step in to prevent an adoption even though the birth mother wants to give the child up.

 

Well, as one who is adopted and feels it to be a great blessing, I have a hard time understanding this type of thing.  Don't get me wrong.  It's completely natural for a mom and grandparents to want to keep children.  That's just how we are wired.  But sometimes that may not be in the best interest of the child and it is unfair to saddle a child with potential burdens simply to satisfy personal needs and feelings.

 

I am quite thankful that my birth mom had the courage to give me up.  I ended up in a wonderful family and I have had a very blessed life.  I'm sure life would have been good with my birth mom too -- but given her very young age I imagine that her giving me up was probably the best thing for both of us.

[Buzzard]

Given the state of modern medicine wherein it is possible to keep people "alive" even without the most basic mental and physical capacity, I too think we need to take a fresh look at this.

 

I, like others, worry that we may make suicide too easy; too acceptable.  So we must be careful.  However, when a terminal patient is nearing the end of their life I can't imagine HF having any trouble with that person choosing to enter the next life after having the opportunity to say goodbye to family in a dignified and proud way.  I see no moral value in keeping people alive when their quality of life is so low -- and likely to remain so -- such that they aren't really human anymore.  If you are tied to machines, can't speak, write or eat or if you brain is essentially dead, I would say your moral probation is over.  "Enduring to the end" in such circumstances seems cruel; especially when HF has given us the ability to avoid this type of ending in a kind, compassionate way.

There is a world of difference between prolonging life when there is no quality there and allowing nature to take it's course. It's very rare for people to teeter on the edge of death for prolonged periods unless they are being medically supported. If there is any doubt, each of us has the ability to sign a medical directive spelling out these choices.

[strappinglad]

Years back I got a kidney stone .. The pain was awful. I received 2 shots of morphine and no effect whatsoever. I can't imagine having that kind of pain for weeks or months. No wonder people beg to die.

[Ahab]

21.3.8

Prolonging Life

When severe illness strikes, members should exercise faith in the Lord and seek competent medical assistance. However, when dying becomes inevitable, it should be seen as a blessing and a purposeful part of eternal existence. Members should not feel obligated to extend mortal life by means that are unreasonable. These judgments are best made by family members after receiving wise and competent medical advice and seeking divine guidance through fasting and prayer.

Handbook 2

That spells it out pretty clearly for me and I agree.

During or shortly after surgery it is reasonable to use machines and medical treatment for blood, food (glucose), and oxygen regulation, but not indefinitely. And my wife and children feel the same way. It's not something that is easy to put a time limit on though because each situation is different, so we can't just say a 2 week limit and that's it with no more equipment after that. So that's when it becomes a matter for prayer with input from medical staff.

[sethpayne]

There is a world of difference between prolonging life when there is no quality there and allowing nature to take it's course. It's very rare for people to teeter on the edge of death for prolonged periods unless they are being medically supported. If there is any doubt, each of us has the ability to sign a medical directive spelling out these choices.

 

I have other situations in mind.  Such as when a cancer patient knows they have a limited time to live.  They can set all things in order and prepare for when that moment comes where they may make the choice to help along the natural process.

[sethpayne]

Years back I got a kidney stone .. The pain was awful. I received 2 shots of morphine and no effect whatsoever. I can't imagine having that kind of pain for weeks or months. No wonder people beg to die.

 

Indeed.  Ending my life addicted to narcotics isn't exactly how I'd like to leave this world.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I feel so bad for those that have to suffer at the end of a wonderful life. I wish death was a cleaner and smoother transition than pain.

[EllenMaksoud]

I noticed this article and pondered my response. My views have changed over the years as I have seen the suffering of people at the end of life. Is there a theological reason why we MUST allow people to suffer until they die ' naturally ' ? Personally I tend toward allowing a choice if strict protocols are followed.

https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/one-woman-s-quest-to-die-with-dignity%E2%80%94and-what-it-means-for-us-all-125810888.html

At the moment, the only suffering I have is from getting old. However, if I had something terminal that I knew about, there are lots of ways to go without involving anyone else.

 

When I was closer to the Medical profession, there was a sort of code. If the chart said, "sedate to comfort", that was the signal to drug them so heavily that it eventually killed them. My only issue with that is that it just runs up a big bill. The only thing stopping common sense is the failure of others to adjust.

[Ahab]

I feel so bad for those that have to suffer at the end of a wonderful life. I wish death was a cleaner and smoother transition than pain.

Yeah me too but pain free or not death is a one time experience, usually, and then all mortal experience is at worst only a memory.

[Ahab]

At the moment, the only suffering I have is from getting old. However, if I had something terminal that I knew about, there are lots of ways to go without involving anyone else.

When I was closer to the Medical profession, there was a sort of code. If the chart said, "sedate to comfort", that was the signal to drug them so heavily that it eventually killed them. My only issue with that is that it just runs up a big bill. The only thing stopping common sense is the failure of others to adjust.

It would be nice if hospitals gave free medicine to those who are dying They make enough money off of the living.

[Buzzard]

I have other situations in mind.  Such as when a cancer patient knows they have a limited time to live.  They can set all things in order and prepare for when that moment comes where they may make the choice to help along the natural process.

You mean my situation.  I have paid for my funeral, bought a plot and a stone, set up a trust, filled out a "living will", and other than composing my obituary, have all my ducks lines up.  Again, I would not dare to second-guess the Lord on the timing of my ultimate passing from mortality. 

[Calm]

so we can't just say a 2 week limit and that's it with no more equipment after that. So that's when it becomes a matter for prayer with input from medical staff.

I think it would be foolish to put an absolute date, especially one so short, on the use of life support across the board.  My mother-in-law was in a coma for 6 weeks, woke up and lived for another 10 to 15 years.  She had significant brain damage and was confined to a wheelchair, but she appeared to enjoy life a great deal and her family enjoyed having her around.  She would have been dead given your standard.