VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) To make covenants with God and have ordinances performed. If it weren't for those ordinances such as baptism, confirmation, Priesthood, temple endowment, and temple sealing to family and marriage, there would be no need for the church as long as you live your life as a good person and are kind to your fellow man. I know a lot of people who say they're religious and believe in God, but don't feel they need to go to church to show that and by being a good Samaritan they can please God. So do we really just go to church and temples for the covenants and ordinances? Couldn't we just be kind to everyone and help out and please God? Edited September 28, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie
Calm Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 What if performing the covenants and ordinances is what pleases God?
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 Well that's what I'm asking, since those seem to be the foundation and whole point of our religion.
AndyDnom Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 yeah, i'm not sure. the majority of humans that ever lived on this earth, lived without record, or died before 8. so there work will either be done by angels, or not at all. And yet, we're told, all will work out. So, the ordinances seem to be just to keep us busy. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 Well the ordinances are necessary for exaltation and the Celestial Kingdom, but like you said those who lived without the record or who died before 8 get a free pass if they choose to accept the ordinances done for them.
Rivers Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) The ordinances and covenants solemnize our relationships with each other and with God. Edited September 28, 2014 by Rivers 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 But we can go through life without knowing about the gospel and still accept the ordinances and covenants in the next life and live a care free mortal existence. (see workers in the field parable) Is that fair to us who accept these ordinances and covenants in the mortal life and then make mistakes? It seems the people we do temple work for are getting a free pass after living a sinful life.
Rivers Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 But we can go through life without knowing about the gospel and still accept the ordinances and covenants in the next life and live a care free mortal existence. (see workers in the field parable) Is that fair to us who accept these ordinances and covenants in the mortal life and then make mistakes? It seems the people we do temple work for are getting a free pass after living a sinful life.Just like the laborers in the vinyard who got paid the same amount as those who had worked much longer.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 So is it better to have the church in your life all along and obeying the commandments and rules your whole life, or is it better to have lived a life full of fun and sin and then in the afterlife accept the gospel and all its ordinances? If the people who are members their whole lives make mistakes with sin, the punishment is worse since they've made covenants, while the other group get to have their sinful life and as long as they have a good heart can get the same reward thanks to temple work. It seems there's bigger punishment and more responsibility for those who are members in mortality and their whole life, than compared to others.
Rivers Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 So is it better to have the church in your life all along and obeying the commandments and rules your whole life, or is it better to have lived a life full of fun and sin and then in the afterlife accept the gospel and all its ordinances? I suppose all that really matters is the final destination which is to become like God. But according to Elder Bruce R. McConkie, there is no way for one to live a life full of sin and eventually gain exaltation later on. Progression within the three degrees of glory is one of his seven deadly heresies. So if BRM is right, it is definitely better to accept the gospel with all of its covenants and ordinances right here in this life. I can totally understand why BRM taught what he did. Why let members of the church know they can whatever they want in this life and catch up later in the afterlife? I personally don't fully understand the purpose of all the ordinances myself. I just know that we do them as a way of expressing our love and commitment to God. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 Well said Rivers. My best friend says he believes in God but doesn't feel he needs church to be a good person.
Boanerges Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 I truly and honestly can't believe that in this day and age people still quote McConkie. Not that he was a bad guy, he certainly was an apostle of the Lord, but the church has evolved and much of what McConkie said was nothing more than his own - and often uninspired - opinion. 1
janderich Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) So is it better to have the church in your life all along and obeying the commandments and rules your whole life, or is it better to have lived a life full of fun and sin and then in the afterlife accept the gospel and all its ordinances? If the people who are members their whole lives make mistakes with sin, the punishment is worse since they've made covenants, while the other group get to have their sinful life and as long as they have a good heart can get the same reward thanks to temple work. It seems there's bigger punishment and more responsibility for those who are members in mortality and their whole life, than compared to others.I see a number of common misunderstandings in your above statement. Such thinking leads down the wrong path. Let me point out just a few items. Sin is not happiness nor is it "fun", it never has been, it never will be. The only reason we feel otherwise is because in this life the consequences for sin can be separated by time. So for instance, sexual sin can bring brief pleasure for a short moment. But when viewed from the eternal perspective we will see that the anguish and subsequent pain felt across the years and into the next plane of existence was not worth it by any stretch of the imagination. This fact applies to all people whether members or not. They will need to suffer the consequences for sin until they repent and turn to the Lord. There is no other way. Next, covenants are simply promises to act upon truth and knowledge. Blessings come when we gain the knowledge and then follow what we know to be true. Based on our level of understanding and our commitment to follow that truth we are endowed with power. A person who does not gain the knowledge, nor knows how to use it, cannot be held accountable before God. This is perhaps part of why there is symbolism in the temple. Symbolism protects those who are not very committed. Because they understand very little, both their blessings and their punishment is small. Many misunderstand this process. They believe that a person can mouth a covenant that has not entered their heart and then can be held to the same standard as one who has completely committed heart, soul, and mind. The two are worlds apart and by the same token, one who has mouthed a covenant without intention has not received the blessing. Lastly, a point about responsibility. The hardest working people are not those who perform the duty that lies ahead of them. It is those who try and avoid it. If a person tries to find enjoyment in constant diversion they will find that the diversion itself has become drudgery and they will find less and less satisfaction in the activity. However, the person who faces the day, who accomplishes the work they need to do at that moment, may be tired at the end of the day, but they will find a fulfillment and satisfaction in their life. Edited September 28, 2014 by janderich 1
Jeanne Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 From a personal point of view, some experiences I have had at church has made me less spiritual and I know a lot of people that do not affiliate with any churches who are extreme in generous, kind and loving ways that include morality. I tend to think that covenants are a way to keep you going and that is how we will see a lot of varied individuals who will be in the same world. The fact that so many in scripture/comments say it will "all work out in the end" is just a way to say: "I don't know".
The Nehor Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 But we can go through life without knowing about the gospel and still accept the ordinances and covenants in the next life and live a care free mortal existence. (see workers in the field parable) Is that fair to us who accept these ordinances and covenants in the mortal life and then make mistakes? It seems the people we do temple work for are getting a free pass after living a sinful life. There is no free pass. They have to repent in the next life like everyone and it is no easier there. Well said Rivers. My best friend says he believes in God but doesn't feel he needs church to be a good person. He doesn't. The Church isn't about creating good people. It is for creating Gods. So is it better to have the church in your life all along and obeying the commandments and rules your whole life, or is it better to have lived a life full of fun and sin and then in the afterlife accept the gospel and all its ordinances? If the people who are members their whole lives make mistakes with sin, the punishment is worse since they've made covenants, while the other group get to have their sinful life and as long as they have a good heart can get the same reward thanks to temple work. It seems there's bigger punishment and more responsibility for those who are members in mortality and their whole life, than compared to others. Actually it is easier to live the gospel and the covenants here then it will be for the dead and while the laborers in the vineyard all get the same reward all have to ACTUALLY LABOR in the vineyard. You do not get to the other side and hear about the covenants offered to you and then say yes and lay back and wait for that sweet exaltation to show up. They accept it and are handed a Home Teaching list, a calling, get the commandments laid out, and are told to get to work or whatever the Spirit World equivalent is. I would also delicately suggest that you should probably work on not envying sinners. You seem to longingly look at others and envy them their lifestyle. You have the Holy Ghost, the power of God at your disposal, and a promise that one day you can rule the cosmos. You have access to tools undreamed of in dealing with the hardships of this life. It is not easier, happier, or more fun elsewhere. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 To make covenants with God and have ordinances performed. If it weren't for those ordinances such as baptism, confirmation, Priesthood, temple endowment, and temple sealing to family and marriage, there would be no need for the church as long as you live your life as a good person and are kind to your fellow man. I know a lot of people who say they're religious and believe in God, but don't feel they need to go to church to show that and by being a good Samaritan they can please God. So do we really just go to church and temples for the covenants and ordinances? Couldn't we just be kind to everyone and help out and please God?Yeh, and, after all, the Telestial Kingdom is in fact a wonderful glory superintended by the Holy Ghost. All those people will end up there at the very least, and many may do even better by waiting for someone to do their temple work while they wait in Spirit Prison to accept the ordinances. You can be lackadaisical and still be saved by grace. How much better to be anxiously engaged in spreading that good news and bringing salvation to all.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 28, 2014 Author Posted September 28, 2014 Do all or most non baptized people wind up in Spirit Prison while awaiting temple work?
Robert F. Smith Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 From a personal point of view, some experiences I have had at church has made me less spiritual and I know a lot of people that do not affiliate with any churches who are extreme in generous, kind and loving ways that include morality. I tend to think that covenants are a way to keep you going and that is how we will see a lot of varied individuals who will be in the same world. The fact that so many in scripture/comments say it will "all work out in the end" is just a way to say: "I don't know".As St Paul points out, They who have not the Law, are a law unto themselves, i.e., they will be judged by the cultural traditions and laws as their society understands them. Think, for example, of the great nobility of The Buddha, or of the Mahatma. God did not send his noble and great ones only to the West, or to Israel. Good-hearted, generous and kind people can be found everywhere. When their ordinances are done, they will accept them beyond the veil and receive highest exaltation.
mormonnewb Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) As St Paul points out, They who have not the Law, are a law unto themselves, i.e., they will be judged by the cultural traditions and laws as their society understands them. Think, for example, of the great nobility of The Buddha, or of the Mahatma. God did not send his noble and great ones only to the West, or to Israel. Good-hearted, generous and kind people can be found everywhere. When their ordinances are done, they will accept them beyond the veil and receive highest exaltation.So HF is powerless to exalt even his most valiant children until a wretch like me gets in the water for them? Seems a little strange to me, but I do think its wonderful that HF would involve someone like me in His most glorious work.The conceptual challenge that I have with this concept is that, even at our most diligent, we're only going to cover a fraction of those who have ever lived. As a result, we posit that Christ will have to put things in order when He returns. At the very least, He will provide us with the "master list" of souls awaiting ordinances.This seems quite inefficient (if not unjust). Currently, the saints spend countless man hours performing ordinances for people who will never accept the Gospel. On the other hand, we have souls who have accepted the Gospel and yet, their work will not be done until Christ's return because we have no way to know they ever existed.Just a random thought ... Edited September 29, 2014 by mormonnewb
LOSTONE Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Life with God is a life style that includes church and service duties. It is clear in the scriptures that this is how it works. I can say I like driving and am a good driver, but if I don’t take time out to drive and practice good driving skills, I am just that idiot who is walking and talking on the side wlak. I think it is similar to those who believe, but don’t attend or serve.
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Do all or most non baptized people wind up in Spirit Prison while awaiting temple work? All. Also, Spirit Prison is hell. Still envying those who accept the gospel later? So HF is powerless to exalt even his most valiant children until a wretch like me gets in the water for them? Seems a little strange to me, but I do think its wonderful that HF would involve someone like me in His most glorious work.The conceptual challenge that I have with this concept is that, even at our most diligent, we're only going to cover a fraction of those who have ever lived. As a result, we posit that Christ will have to put things in order when He returns. At the very least, He will provide us with the "master list" of souls awaiting ordinances.This seems quite inefficient (if not unjust). Currently, the saints spend countless man hours performing ordinances for people who will never accept the Gospel. On the other hand, we have souls who have accepted the Gospel and yet, their work will not be done until Christ's return because we have no way to know they ever existed.Just a random thought ... Yep, sucks to be them. That is one of the downsides of God letting us get so involved in the work of salvation. He apparently thinks it is worth it.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 29, 2014 Author Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) Nehor, now I'm not envying those who accept the gospel later. I'm glad I'm baptized, have the Holy Ghost, and am temple endowed. I want to avoid Spirit Prison (Hell), at all costs. Edited September 29, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Nehor, now I'm not envying those who accept the gospel later. I'm glad I'm baptized, have the Holy Ghost, and am temple endowed. I want to avoid Spirit Prison (Hell), at all costs. Then my work here is done. 2
mormonnewb Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 All. Also, Spirit Prison is hell. Still envying those who accept the gospel later? Yep, sucks to be them. That is one of the downsides of God letting us get so involved in the work of salvation. He apparently thinks it is worth it.Or is it that He simply allows some of us to THINK we are so vital to the work of salvation. When my son and I work "together" on his pinewood derby car, I let him THINK that I need his help to finish it. Yet, the TRUTH is that I could do it much faster without him. And when he inevitably gets bored (or otherwise distracted), I am the one who actually puts on the final sticker, weight, what have you.Isn't it just as likely that HF allows us to help in the work of salvation, but that He will act on his own when we become bored (or otherwise distracted)?
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Or is it that He simply allows some of us to THINK we are so vital to the work of salvation. When my son and I work "together" on his pinewood derby car, I let him THINK that I need his help to finish it. Yet, the TRUTH is that I could do it much faster without him. And when he inevitably gets bored (or otherwise distracted), I am the one who actually puts on the final sticker, weight, what have you.Isn't it just as likely that HF allows us to help in the work of salvation, but that He will act on his own when we become bored (or otherwise distracted)?Then God is a liar and the sooner we all leave the gospel and the church the better.
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