VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I know about the 1/3, but what about the people that have come to this earth? Who eventually winds up in Outer Darkness? Should we as members worry about it? I heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. How do you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? I wonder because I heard even murderers who go through spirit prison (temporary hell) can wind up in the Telestial Kingdom. So who goes to the worst?
katherine the great Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I personally think no one but the third. And I hope that for Heavenly Mother's sake that when all is said and done that they will somehow be reconciled with the family as well. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 That would be a great event for all to be reconciled with the family. I wonder about souls like Cain, Judas, and Hitler.
teddyaware Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) I know about the 1/3, but what about the people that have come to this earth? Who eventually winds up in Outer Darkness? Should we as members worry about it? I heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. How do you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? I wonder because I heard even murderers who go through spirit prison (temporary hell) can wind up in the Telestial Kingdom. So who goes to the worst?These are they who were once fully cleansed from sin and sanctified by the Spirit, but who utterly reject the truth and come out in total rebellion against God and all things good and holy. By their rebellion, they devolve into a state of implacable hatred against God the Father and Jesus Christ. Their all-consuming and singular desire is to dethrone God and, if possible, destroy Him and all He loves and holds dear. In their perfect hatred against God and absolute rebellion against all that is good, they utterly refuse to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Therefore they place themselves beyond the reach of God's saving mercy. As free agents they want nothing to do with God and His kingdom, and because they are free to choose life or death, and having chose death, God is powerless to save them against their own wills.25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son.26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; (D&C 76) Edited August 22, 2014 by teddyaware
Buzzard Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) That would be a great event for all to be reconciled with the family. I wonder about souls like Cain, Judas, and Hitler.At the risk of treading into muddy waters, Cain for sure, because he rebelled against God after having heard his voice and knowing of his reality for a surety. Judas is a borderline case. He knew the Savior personally, but the Holy Ghost had not yet come to the apostles. All the apostles scattered and ran after his crucifixion until they received the comforter. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Vlad the Impaler and other notorious sinners get a cold and dark corner of the Telestial Kingdom, but don't qualify for Perdition simply because they didn't have enough knowledge to rebel against. Edited August 22, 2014 by Buzzard
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 Church members seem to know a lot, especially temple endowed members. When they sin does it make it worse since they have a lot of knowledge? I'm talking mainly temple covenant breakers who made a mistake, but try to repent.
jasonincognito Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 ... I heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. How do you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? ... My understanding from my own tradition (Orthodox) of this reference (from Matthew 12:31-32, and Mark 3:28-30), is that while God is by His divine nature capable of forgiving any sin, the Holy Ghost is the means by which that forgiveness can ultimately reach a person. By blaspheming against the Holy Ghost, one is not only sinning but also choking off the means of forgiveness for that sin (and any other sins), effectively turning one's back on repentance by shunning the harbinger of repentence. I would be curious to learn if and how LDS teaching differs from this understanding. Forgive me,Jason
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I know about the 1/3, but what about the people that have come to this earth? Who eventually winds up in Outer Darkness? Should we as members worry about it? I heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. How do you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? I wonder because I heard even murderers who go through spirit prison (temporary hell) can wind up in the Telestial Kingdom. So who goes to the worst? Only those that refuse to repent in "inherit" outer darkness because they will accept no other. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 Jason, that is a very interesting concept. I'm not sure what the LDS concept is, I'd love to hear as well. I hope it's not just simply having a prompting that something is wrong and then still doing the sin, because everyone's done stuff they knew was wrong.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 My understanding from my own tradition (Orthodox) of this reference (from Matthew 12:31-32, and Mark 3:28-30), is that while God is by His divine nature capable of forgiving any sin, the Holy Ghost is the means by which that forgiveness can ultimately reach a person. By blaspheming against the Holy Ghost, one is not only sinning but also choking off the means of forgiveness for that sin (and any other sins), effectively turning one's back on repentance by shunning the harbinger of repentence. I would be curious to learn if and how LDS teaching differs from this understanding. Forgive me,Jason We are somewhat similar. In LDS parlance blasphemy against the Holy Ghost isblasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven: Matt. 12:31 . ( Mark 3:29 ; Luke 12:10 ; D&C 132:27 . )sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge: Heb. 10:26 .received the baptism of fire … after this should deny me: 2 Ne. 31:14 .deny … the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit: Jacob 6:8 .committed the unpardonable sin … lied unto God: Jacob 7:19 .cometh out in open rebellion against God: Mosiah 2:37 .deny the Holy Ghost … sin which is unpardonable: Alma 39:6 .Spirit hath ceased … they are denying the Holy Ghost: Moro. 8:28 .See also Heb. 6:6 ; Alma 24:30 ; D&C 76:35
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 thesometimessaint, I feel I've committed some of those in a way and to a degree.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 thesometimessaint, I feel I've committed some of those in a way and to a degree. Then repent. To the person that repents God will remember their sins no more.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Thanks! I do repent, every night and day actually. I beat myself up still for my past sins. I said I committed those sins because I've had the thought spring into my mind before that what I was doing was wrong and that I should know better, but I went along and made the mistake anyway. I felt the Holy Ghost was telling me not to make the mistake and I didn't listen. Edited August 22, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie
ERayR Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks! I do repent, every night and day actually. I beat myself up still for my past sins. I said I committed those sins because I've had the thought spring into my mind before that what I was doing was wrong and that I should know better, but I went along and made the mistake anyway. I felt the Holy Ghost was telling me not to make the mistake and I didn't listen. Past is past you can do nothing about it. It must be left to the atonement. What you must do is live in the present and become comfortable with who you have become.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks! I do repent, every night and day actually. I beat myself up still for my past sins. I said I committed those sins because I've had the thought spring into my mind before that what I was doing was wrong and that I should know better, but I went along and made the mistake anyway. I felt the Holy Ghost was telling me not to make the mistake and I didn't listen. ALL of us fall far short of the Glory of God. I'm not excusing sin, but to constantly beating yourself up over past wrongs and sins is to not believe the promises that you were given. So repent of beating yourself up over them, grow and learn from your mistakes and just do better.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks saint and Eray! I will try to move on and trust more that Jesus forgives my sins. I used to have that kind of attitude that says "Of course Jesus forgives everyone else's sins, but I'm not sure about mine".
ERayR Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks saint and Eray! I will try to move on and trust more that Jesus forgives my sins. I used to have that kind of attitude that says "Of course Jesus forgives everyone else's sins, but I'm not sure about mine". You are part of the everybody else.
thesometimesaint Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Thanks saint and Eray! I will try to move on and trust more that Jesus forgives my sins. I used to have that kind of attitude that says "Of course Jesus forgives everyone else's sins, but I'm not sure about mine". It is a common enough belief among the Saints. It is kind of a reverse ego-centrism. "I'm so "special" God can't love me". That is just Satan working on you.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 Good points. Satan does want me to feel guilt and worthless. Heavenly Father and Jesus want me to feel happy and wonderful.
halconero Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 My understanding from my own tradition (Orthodox) of this reference (from Matthew 12:31-32, and Mark 3:28-30), is that while God is by His divine nature capable of forgiving any sin, the Holy Ghost is the means by which that forgiveness can ultimately reach a person. By blaspheming against the Holy Ghost, one is not only sinning but also choking off the means of forgiveness for that sin (and any other sins), effectively turning one's back on repentance by shunning the harbinger of repentence. I would be curious to learn if and how LDS teaching differs from this understanding. Forgive me,Jason This isn't something necessarily brought up often in LDS thought (except perhaps with regards to our teachings on the Second Comforter, or the Holy Spirit of Promise), but I'm undertaking studies (partially) in Early Christian Writings. One thing that suprised me is that in most cases where the New Testament refers to the Spirit as testator, or in confirming testimony, it is actually referring to his roll as a legal executor. Much like an executor who oversees the dispensing of property following the death of an individual, it is the Holy Ghost's role to act as the legal executor of the Father's bill of inheritance: that all who follow Christ receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God. Along with an Orthodox, or Latter-day Saint understanding of Blasphemy Against the Holy Ghost, I could understand this being unforgiveable, as the one committing such a sin effectively disinheriting themselves.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 23, 2014 Author Posted August 23, 2014 I was just confused in what ways and how someone would disinherit themselves, but someone answered already.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 23, 2014 Author Posted August 23, 2014 The biggest sins that most members probably have to worry about are pre marital sexual relations. This can be anything from minor sexual actions to fornication. Especially if you're endowed in the temple. But I do believe if you truly feel deep sorrow and repent and confess to a Bishop, you can be forgiven and avoid Outer Darkness.
cdowis Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Jason, You may need to understand that we make sacred covenants with the Lord in the temple, so only those who have taken those covenants could qualify to commit the unpardonable sin. But your have given an interesting insight into LDS doctrine on this point, because the Holy Spirit "justifies", or ratifies (puts on the seal of approval, so to speak) those covenants. Denying the Holy Ghost would then make it impossible to be justified at any level. Hope that is not confusing. This may seem to be an extreme example, but there was an individual who had renounced his temple covenants, and was indirectly responsible for the death of several individuals associated with the church, including a couple of missionaries, and rejoiced at their death. Edited August 23, 2014 by cdowis
Vanguard Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 I know about the 1/3, but what about the people that have come to this earth? Who eventually winds up in Outer Darkness? Should we as members worry about it? I heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable. How do you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? I wonder because I heard even murderers who go through spirit prison (temporary hell) can wind up in the Telestial Kingdom. So who goes to the worst? As you can see from many of the posts there are several scriptures that attempt to define what an individual has to do to merit Outer Darkness and most of them revolve around the charge of having blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. That's all fine and well as long as we as members drop the issue at that point. In my own experience I have heard too often the attempt made to assign this fate to more than one of several notorious figures from scripture (i.e., Cain, Judas, Laman/Lemuel, and others). Again from my own experience, it is all too easy to pass that type of judgment against those ancient figures based solely on their reported actions as characterized by scripture. We really don't know them nor are they there to defend themselves thereby making it uncomfortably easy to condemn them. Seldomly will members stand up and defend these figures from such a judgment. And with that exercise comes the more grievous commentary of passing these kinds of judgments - albeit in a more veiled, politically correct way - against more recent figures many of whom may still be living. My wife encountered one such example - albeit a more extreme case - of a fellow sister while teaching the Laurels told them that her previous brother-in-law would assuredly be consigned to OD due to his having divorced her sister and leaving several children behind! I am also reminded of certain websites several years ago where all kinds of folks were challenged to post the claim that they officially denied the Holy Spirit. Aside from the exercise being very nauseating to read, I had to conclude they knew not what they did and therefore were probably not consigned to the very fate they mocked. Point being, we as members know not what "denying the HG" actually looks like from one person to the next as we simply don't know whether they have received that witness of the Spirit. And no, simply being baptized & confirmed is not necessarily the litmus for such a malicious determination.
Ahab Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) My understanding from my own tradition (Orthodox) of this reference (from Matthew 12:31-32, and Mark 3:28-30), is that while God is by His divine nature capable of forgiving any sin, the Holy Ghost is the means by which that forgiveness can ultimately reach a person. By blaspheming against the Holy Ghost, one is not only sinning but also choking off the means of forgiveness for that sin (and any other sins), effectively turning one's back on repentance by shunning the harbinger of repentence.I would be curious to learn if and how LDS teaching differs from this understanding.Forgive me,JasonThat's pretty much it. Joseph Smith compared denying the Holy Ghost to denying the sun is shining while looking right at it, totally refusing to acknowledge it/him. If they didn't deny him, they'd be forgiven, but they just deny him. Edited August 23, 2014 by Ahab
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