Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 I personally have no problem with you being willing to go to jail or pay large fines or both for breaking the law.Just do me a favor by not asking me to bake a wedding cake for any gay wedding, and ask your gay friends not to ask me either. That would be really nice, and a Christian thing to do, if you could just do me that favor. After all, you know how I would feel about some gay people asking me to do that. And please don't report me to the civil authorities either. The fact that I'm willing to say No and go to jail or pay a fine rather than saying Yes to that request doesn't mean that I want to go to jail or pay a fine. 1
Tacenda Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 That's not what I was talking about.Statements like that are why we have the hate, people need to let it go. 1
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Statements like that are why we have the hate, people need to let it go.Love everyone but hate all sin. And don't let go of that hate.
california boy Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Just do me a favor by not asking me to bake a wedding cake for any gay wedding, and ask your gay friends not to ask me either. That would be really nice, and a Christian thing to do, if you could just do me that favor. After all, you know how I would feel about some gay people asking me to do that. And please don't report me to the civil authorities either. The fact that I'm willing to say No and go to jail or pay a fine rather than saying Yes to that request doesn't mean that I want to go to jail or pay a fine. I will bring it up in our next "gay agenda" meeting. I don't want to see you going to jail. In the mean time, it would be helpful if you would keep from owning a business that serves the public. 2
Stone holm Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Love everyone but hate all sin. And don't let go of that hate.Yeah that saying, love the sinner, but hate the sin...has masked an awful lot of smiling mischief in the past.
thesometimesaint Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, and our Lord's prophets and apostles allowed worldly authorities to put them in jail too. I wouldn't call that a game, exactly, but I think I know what you mean. Some were most weren't. But that doesn't take anything away from either. What I dislike is for anyone to willfully violate the law then claim personal exemption because of deeply held religious beliefs. Any number of people have played that game to justify their own atrocious behaviors. Not all games are nice games.
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 I will bring it up in our next "gay agenda" meeting. I don't want to see you going to jail. In the mean time, it would be helpful if you would keep from owning a business that serves the public.Any particular kind of business that you want me to stay away from? And you do realize that I can do some kind of business from home, don't you?... without needing another place to do business. My wife and I asked someone else to bake our wedding cake for us, when we got married, and she did it in her own home and brought it to where we got married, civilly, before our temple sealing. And she was able to bake that cake almost as well as we could have made it. It was just nice to have somebody else willing to do that for us, as you would probably want someone else to do something like that for you. So would you like us to not do that for any other couple, just because we wouldn't want to do it for you or any other gay wedding? You know you and your gay friends are a minority in our overall society, don't you? Think about all of the other people that we would be willing to bake wedding cakes for. Are you really going to kick up a big fuss and report us to the State authorities if we refuse to bake any cakes for gay people? Is that the way you really want to be? Really? 1
USU78 Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 I will bring it up in our next "gay agenda" meeting. I don't want to see you going to jail. In the mean time, it would be helpful if you would keep from owning a business that serves the public. Because, of course, Christians and, especially, Mormons are not only not welcome in the public square of politics, they're likewise not welcome in the public square of commerce. Nice to have clarity.
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Some were most weren't. But that doesn't take anything away from either. What I dislike is for anyone to willfully violate the law then claim personal exemption because of deeply held religious beliefs. Any number of people have played that game to justify their own atrocious behaviors. Not all games are nice games. CaI'm really being tempted to bring up Godwin's law. You know, like how many Germans reported Jews to their local authorities because it was a law that they be reported. All just because they were Jews and the big wig German authorities thought it was their duty to mankind to get rid of the Jews. Except that now we're getting into getting rid of good people who don't want to actively support gay weddings, like me, as if we need to be removed from society. As if we are doing harm to society by not wanting to support people doing things that we know are bad.It feels like it's getting to the point where righteous people who refuse to do bad things can't be left alone to live in peace anymore.
USU78 Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 CaI'm really being tempted to bring up Godwin's law. You know, like how many Germans reported Jews to their local authorities because it was a law that they be reported. All just because they were Jews and the big wig German authorities thought it was their duty to mankind to get rid of the Jews. Except that now we're getting into getting rid of good people who don't want to actively support gay weddings, like me, as if we need to be removed from society. As if we are doing harm to society by not wanting to support people doing things that we know are bad.It feels like it's getting to the point where righteous people who refuse to do bad things can't be left alone to live in peace anymore. What hath narcissismus imperalis wrought?
pogi Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Except that now we're getting into getting rid of good people who don't want to actively support gay weddings, like me, as if we need to be removed from society. As if we are doing harm to society by not wanting to support people doing things that we know are bad. You keep falling back on an empty cushion with this "active support" bologna. There is nothing in it. Perhaps we should shut down flour and sugar sells to gay people too, because they intend to make a cake with it for their wedding. Maybe Rocky Mountain power should shut down power to their home as they don't want to "support" their gay lifestyle. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) CaI'm really being tempted to bring up Godwin's law. You know, like how many Germans reported Jews to their local authorities because it was a law that they be reported. All just because they were Jews and the big wig German authorities thought it was their duty to mankind to get rid of the Jews. Except that now we're getting into getting rid of good people who don't want to actively support gay weddings, like me, as if we need to be removed from society. As if we are doing harm to society by not wanting to support people doing things that we know are bad.It feels like it's getting to the point where righteous people who refuse to do bad things can't be left alone to live in peace anymore. It is a simple fact of history, from time immemorial, that people have justified their atrocious behaviors by appealing to their personal deeply held religious beliefs. To deny that or claim a Godwin's law violation is spurious and borders on being disingenuous. Where have I ever advocated for, or had any sympathy for, getting rid of anyone, be they good, bad, and/or indifferent? I don't support gay weddings, marriages, or sexual relations. What I do support is their Civil Rights under our, in the US, Constitution. No law is requiring I bake any cake I don't want to. When I go into business I agree to follow the laws governing business. The law is I can't discriminate on the basis of religion in the operation of my business. I can work to get the law changed but until it is changed I must obey the law, Edited February 13, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Or perhaps we should just keep praying that our Lord will come back soon to remove anyone who doesn't live righteously and reign over the new world righteously. How does that sound to you?
thesometimesaint Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Or perhaps we should just keep praying that our Lord will come back soon to remove anyone who doesn't live righteously and reign over the new world righteously.How does that sound to you? Not so good. I much prefer Gods' children repenting before they are removed either by us mortals or when God returns in these the Latter-days. . Edited February 13, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Not so good. I much prefer Gods' children repenting before they are removed either by us mortals or when God returns. Not going to happen, though. Some of us are even supporting unrighteous now with the idea that people who are actively sinning should be treated like righteous people, even baking wedding cakes for gay weddings while penalizing bakers who will bake them only for regular weddings. Edited February 13, 2015 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Not going to happen, though. Some of us are even supporting unrighteous now with the idea that people who are actively sinning should be treated like righteous people, even baking wedding cakes for gay weddings while penalizing bakers who will bake them only for regular weddings. If God is guilty of supporting unrighteousness by letting the sun shine and rain fall equally on the wicked and the righteous without discriminating, then I am guilty too. 2
Daniel2 Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Ahab,Do you believe Latter-day Saint clerks and checkers and gas station attendants should be required to ring up and sell alcohol or cigarettes or coffee or tea or hostess twinkies or condoms to people not wearing wedding rings? Or do you think they should be able to decline to sell such products (because of their religious beliefs) and expect their employers to hire someone else to handle those transactions?Does your aversion to refusing to support sin apply to all products, goods, services, and sinners--or just to gay wedding cakes? Edited February 13, 2015 by Daniel2 1
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) If God is guilty of supporting unrighteousness by letting the sun shine and rain fall equally on the wicked and the righteous without discriminating, then I am guilty too.What if you could go back to the days before the non-discrimination laws passed, back when it was legal for you to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding without being penalized by legal authorities, and you very politely explained why you felt and thought that you should not bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding because you felt and thought that gay people shouldn't be marrying each other in the first place and also that you didn't want to give the impression that you would be willing to do something to support and provide for a gay wedding ceremony?Huh? What if you could do that, while you were able to make and bake a darn really good wedding cake?Would you do it? Edited February 13, 2015 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Ahab,Do you believe Latter-day Saint clerks and checkers and gas station attendants should be required to ring up and sell alcohol or cigarettes? Or do you think they should be able to decline to sell such products (because of their religious beliefs) and expect their employers to hire someone else to handle those transactions?If you mean do I believe LDS should accept money/jobs for selling things to people that they believe people should not be buying, my answer is No.
Daniel2 Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) If you mean do I believe LDS should accept money/jobs for selling things to people that they believe people should not be buying, my answer is No.So, it's your belief that Latter-day Saints should simply exercise their religious freedom by choosing to avoid professions that would otherwise require them to violate their religious conscience.I agree.I think we just solved the thread.:thumbs up: Edited February 13, 2015 by Daniel2 1
pogi Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 What if you could go back to the days before the non-discrimination laws passed, back when it was legal for you to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding without being penalized by legal authorities, and you very politely explained why you felt and thought that you should not bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding because you felt and thought that gay people shouldn't be marrying each other in the first place and also that you didn't want to give the impression that you would be willing to do something to support and provide for a gay wedding ceremony?Huh? What if you could do that, while you were able to make and bake a darn really good wedding cake?Would you do it? When I look back pre-nondiscrimination, I see a much much nastier history then you pretend can exist. Yes, I would follow God's example with the sun and rain and bake the cake.
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) So, it's your belief that Latter-day Saints should simply exercise their religious freedom by choosing to avoid professions that would otherwise require them to violate their religious conscience.I agree.I think we just solved the thread.:thumbs up:Regular weddings are good, though, and wedding cakes in support of regular weddings are acceptable, too. We shouldn't have to stop baking wedding cakes altogether just because we don't want to bake any for gay weddings. And the same principle applies to all kinds of other things besides wedding cakes too. We shouldn't be offering anything we don't think people should have but we should still be offering what we think they should have. Edited February 13, 2015 by Ahab 1
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 When I look back pre-nondiscrimination, I see a much much nastier history then you pretend can exist.Yes, I would follow God's example with the sun and rain and bake the cake.Now extend the same principle to providing the whole ceremony for a gay couple, with you being the one asked to marry them too.Would you still do it? Would you wed them?
pogi Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Now extend the same principle to providing the whole ceremony for a gay couple, with you being the one asked to marry them too.Would you still do it? Would you wed them? As a civil servant performing a legal civil ceremony, yes I would. I would let them know my feelings on gay marriage before hand and suggest that they might prefer someone else, but if they really wanted me to do it for some reason, I would feel no guilt or problem with performing the ceremony. I didn't feel guilty about selling coffee to customers at einstein bagels when I was a kid, or alcohol to the guests of the several restaurants I served at either. I am so evil! Edited February 13, 2015 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 As a civil servant performing a legal civil ceremony, yes I would. I would let them know my feelings on gay marriage before hand and suggest that they might prefer someone else, but if they really wanted me to do it for some reason, I would feel no guilt or problem with performing the ceremony. I didn't feel guilty about selling coffee to customers at einstein bagels when I was a kid, or alcohol to the guests of the several restaurants I served at either. I am so evil!You sound like one of those people who does something just because that is your job without realizing that doesn't have to be your job. You choose to do whatever you do and that includes agreeing to do whatever you do as a job.I can hear you whimpering now as you explain to a gay couple that you don't like doing your job when it involves marrying gay people because you don't think they should be getting married while you go ahead and wed them anyway.How pathetic. Would you at least not smile as you wed them or would you still try to act as if you didn't approve while you did it for them anyway.
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