Kate Kelly Is Threatening To Sue The Lds Church

[Scott Lloyd]

Well if that is what the majority has decided I will respect that professional assessment. I was not aware that such a finding had actually occurred.

 

He quoted you as acknowledging "the majority of legal opinion" in your decision to "concede that KK did indeed threaten to sue the church."

 

You're inconsistency does not compute.

 

In the mean time... im bailing out of this thread that has become a vitriolic personal attack on KK and her husband... I personally encourage you to shut it down as it is unbecoming and no longer dealing with the subject it lead with.

Rather it is dealing with personal snipes at KK and her husbands interest in kids and other inappropriate topics.

 

It will be up to Smac, of course, to make a decision to shut it down, but I disagree that it is "unbecoming and no longer dealing with the subject it led with."

 

Kelly has made herself a public figure and sought widespread publicity for her actions and words. As such, they are a legitimate topic for public discussion. And, under the circumstances, I'd say the discourse here has been fairly restrained, if anything.

 

There is room for disagreement on the matter of discussing her public statements about not wanting children, but we had pretty well moved off of that anyway, until you brought it up again.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

This seems a bit like the old claim from evangelicals that Mormons believe in "a different Jesus." There is only one Jesus. We can have differing (and, perhaps, erroneous) conceptions of Him, but in reality, there can be only one.

 

Likewise, the Church is what it is. Kate Kelly can have her own conception of Mormonism (and, based on what I'm reading here, it's striking me as a strange and alien conception) but that in no way changes the character of Mormonism. We can either approach that true character in our personal relationship to it or distance ourselves from it.

 

The real problems come when she and others endeavor to redefine it to meet their own notions and to impose that redefinition on everyone else.

 

Agreed that their is only one Christ.  My point being that we all see Christ through the lens of our own experiences and the challenge being to see Christ as he really is.

[ksfisher]

Transcription of a couple comments from part 3 starting around 1:36:52:

 

"Zion isn't a place where certain people are excluded because of beliefs they hold"

 

No sure I understand this.  So if I don't, for example, believe in Zion I'm not to be excluded from it? 

[rhythm]

"Zion isn't a place where certain people are excluded because of beliefs they hold"

 

No sure I understand this.  So if I don't, for example, believe in Zion I'm not to be excluded from it? 

I think what she's saying is that she should be able to believe that women should have the priesthood, for example, and still be a part of Zion.

[USU78]

KK, throughout, has acted like the little brother who keeps poking the older brother with a stick, trying to get a response.

 

If big brother yells, little brother runs to Mom and complains big brother yelled at him for no reason.

If big brother yanks the stick away, little brother runs to Mom and complains that big brother took his stick for no good reason.

If big brother yanks the stick away and breaks it over little brother's head, little brother runs to Mom and complains that big brother hit him for no good reason.

 

If, however, big brother ignores the little puke, little brother will ultimately give up.

 

Yet KK refused to give up.

 

She just keeps escalating the poking, while Big Brother does nothing.

 

The press, and a select few hereabouts (and, of course, KK's fellow travelers at OWN), applaud the escalated poking, while not seriously considering why little brother should be poking in the first place.

 

It's bewildering.

[Scott Lloyd]

Agreed that their is only one Christ.  My point being that we all see Christ through the lens of our own experiences and the challenge being to see Christ as he really is.

Then yes, we are in agreement.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think what she's saying is that she should be able to believe that women should have the priesthood, for example, and still be a part of Zion.

But Zion, by definition, is a people who are of one heart and one mind (see Moses 7:18-19). I don't see how this can be the case where there is discord on such a fundamental matter as the priesthood.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[rhythm]

But Zion, by definition, is a people who are of one heart and one mind. I don't see how this can be the case where there is discord on such a fundamental matter as the priesthood.

Well, she could have maintained her beliefs and stayed in the church (although you could argue she would not be a part of "Zion").  She wasn't excluded because of her beliefs, but because of her actions.

[Mystery Meat]

But Zion, by definition, is a people who are of one heart and one mind. I don't see how this can be the case where there is discord on such a fundamental matter as the priesthood.

 

Its pretty ironic. The world values diversity, which I think is a good thing to do in a worldly place. However, God, it would seem, values sameness (one mind, one heart). I think we will find in a Zion/Celestial society there is no diversity of opinion. Everybody will essentially think and act the same. Yet, KK believes in a different kind of Zion. One that has no scriptural support.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, she could have maintained her beliefs and stayed in the church (although you could argue she would not be a part of "Zion").  She wasn't excluded because of her beliefs, but because of her actions.

That's true. But the point at issue here is what it means to be part of Zion, which, as you acknowledge above, is not necessarily synonymous with membership in the Church.

[Scott Lloyd]

Its pretty ironic. The world values diversity, which I think is a good thing to do in a worldly place. However, God, it would seem, values sameness (one mind, one heart). I think we will find in a Zion/Celestial society there is no diversity of opinion. Everybody will essentially think and act the same. Yet, KK believes in a different kind of Zion. One that has no scriptural support.

I have to agree with this.

 

I think one reason that the world values diversity is the tacit and axiomatic acknowledgement that no individual in this mortal sphere has attained perfection, in thought or in anything else. But perfection will prevail in a Zion society.

 

Meanwhile, our task while here is to approach Zion (to use a phrase employed by Hugh Nibley).

 

Afterthought:

 

We can ponder the perfect unity that exists between the Father and the Son, a unity so complete and divine that it transcends our mortal understanding, though we acknowledge its verity.

 

It's such unity that Christ desires for all of His followers -- unity with the Father and Him as well as with one another -- if we are to believe the words in His intercessory prayer in John 17.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

Its pretty ironic. The world values diversity, which I think is a good thing to do in a worldly place. However, God, it would seem, values sameness (one mind, one heart). I think we will find in a Zion/Celestial society there is no diversity of opinion. Everybody will essentially think and act the same. Yet, KK believes in a different kind of Zion. One that has no scriptural support.

 

I don't believe that diversity is the problem.  The following is a quote from President Uchtdorf - April 2013

 

"Sometimes we confuse differences in personality with sin. We can even make the mistake of thinking that because someone is different from us, it must mean they are not pleasing to God. This line of thinking leads some to believe that the Church wants to create every member from a single mold—that each one should look, feel, think, and behave like every other. This would contradict the genius of God, who created every man different from his brother, every son different from his father."

 

The problem lies in disunity.  We all can bring our divers opinions to the church and to Zion, but we need to be united in our commitment to follow Christ and build his kingdom.  The council system of the church is a wonderful example of building strength through diversity.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ksfisher

[Calm]

I think what she's saying is that she should be able to believe that women should have the priesthood, for example, and still be a part of Zion.

I think she may see Zion as a community that is based solely on love/charity, the only requirement for belonging is that you treat others with love and respect.

[Calm]

KK, throughout, has acted like the little brother who keeps poking the older brother with a stick, trying to get a response.

 

If big brother yells, little brother runs to Mom and complains big brother yelled at him for no reason.

If big brother yanks the stick away, little brother runs to Mom and complains that big brother took his stick for no good reason.

If big brother yanks the stick away and breaks it over little brother's head, little brother runs to Mom and complains that big brother hit him for no good reason.

 

If, however, big brother ignores the little puke, little brother will ultimately give up.

 

Yet KK refused to give up.

 

She just keeps escalating the poking, while Big Brother does nothing.

 

The press, and a select few hereabouts (and, of course, KK's fellow travelers at OWN), applaud the escalated poking, while not seriously considering why little brother should be poking in the first place.

 

It's bewildering.

I think Big Brother took the stick away when they took her membership.  (not that I really agree with your analogy, but if I did…)

Edited July 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Its pretty ironic. The world values diversity, which I think is a good thing to do in a worldly place. However, God, it would seem, values sameness (one mind, one heart). I think we will find in a Zion/Celestial society there is no diversity of opinion. Everybody will essentially think and act the same. Yet, KK believes in a different kind of Zion. One that has no scriptural support.

God must value diversity because he certainly created us with enough of it.

 

I think he values conformity to his Will where diversity leads to contention.  Where diversity can contribute to the community, he encourages it imo (development of talents, variety of experiences, worldwide missionary work instead of just a limited people now).

 

PS:  ksfisher got there before I did and better.

Edited July 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I think Big Brother took the stick away when they took her membership.  (not that I really agree with your analogy, but if I did…)

No, she's still wielding the stick -- as indicated by the insolence in her appeal letter and her publication of it.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

God must value diversity because he certainly created us with enough of it.

 

I think he values conformity to his Will where diversity leads to contention.  Where diversity can contribute to the community, he encourages it imo (development of talents, variety of experiences, worldwide missionary work instead of just a limited people now).

 

PS:  ksfisher got there before I did and better.

Again it's a matter of separate spheres, the mortal and the eternal.

 

Conceivably, in the eternal sphere, everyone will be perfectly accomplished in all talents.

 

To return to my phrasing in the above post, we approach Zion while we are here in the mortal sphere, by developing the talents we do have, recognizing they are limited in number and scope, and that we need others to develop their talents as well, thus contributing to the benefit of the whole community.

 

And, as you've indicated, we approach Zion by conforming our mind and will with that of God insofar as we are able.

 

Finally, I don't believe we approach Zion through discord and contention -- except to the extent that we overcome and eliminate those impulses, thoughts and opinions that are not pleasing to God and encourage others to do so.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mystery Meat]

Again it's a matter of separate spheres, the mortal and the eternal.

 

Conceivably, in the eternal sphere, everyone will be perfectly accomplished in all talents.

 

To return to my phrasing in the above post, we approach Zion while we are here in the mortal sphere, by developing the talents we do have, recognizing they are limited in number and scope, and that we need others to develop their talents as well, thus contributing to the benefit of the whole community.

 

And, as you've indicated, we approach Zion by conforming our mind and will with that of God insofar as we are able.

 

Finally, I don't believe we approach Zion through discord and contention -- except to the extent that we overcome and eliminate those impulses, thoughts and opinions that are not pleasing to God and encourage others to do so.

 

This.

[USU78]

No, she's still wielding the stick -- as indicated by the insolence in her appeal letter and her publication of it.

 

Exactly:  She keeps escalating.  She will never give up her stick.

[why me]

Why Me, what you said sparked my memory, John Dehlin will pay for the food of any students at BYU if they to get together as a group and discuss important, I guess important, issues. I heard this on the first podcast of the interview. I may need to listen again to make sure I heard right but thought this was quite alarming if true. Why does this not sit well with me? What issues would he want them to discuss? Did anyone else hear this?

I have yet to listen to the last podcast to hear if Kate is actually thinking of suing, I'll do that after I listen to a portion of the first podcast to verify the offer John made to BYU students.

ETA: When I played the 1st podcast on my phone it had issues where I couldn't fast forward to the place I needed, I re-listened and they discuss Neil living in a country with great poverty and that made him want to help with change for a better world, I gather this is what John wants the students at BYU to do, help make the change. The podcast all the sudden stopped playing before it got to the part and I'm too tired to start over. So what John probably offered had really nothing to do with the church, so I had no reason to worry it was something else like creating another generation of MS fans that learn something negative about the church.

Both kate and john think that they are big wigs in the lds church. But actually, they are not. On a scale of 1 to 5 they would both be a one. And when it comes to influence, they would be a zero. My point is simple: the lds church is a revelatory church. It depends on revelation to make changes such as what they are both calling for. It doesn't come from social pressure or peer pressure. Unfortunately since they both have lost touch with the lds church and a belief in its revelatory powers, they will continue to exercise their right to challenge church policy from the sidelines.

 

This also happened during Joseph Smith's time when a member was excommunicated. They would go to the media or become a public person speaking out against the mormons. Do you remember their names? Probably not...because they are basically forgotten. .

[why me]

Exactly:  She keeps escalating.  She will never give up her stick.

She never had any intention of giving up unless she got her way. Such is a radical feminist who believes that men are oppressors and patriarchy is the root of all evil. She will escalate and escalate until doomsday or for as long as someone like john gives her airtime.

 

This thread has run its course.