The Origin Of Man By The First Presidency

[MormonFreeThinker]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

 

It is clear that the Origin of Man by the First Presidency doesn't talk about: 

1) A Young Earth 

2) No Animal Death Before the Fall 

3) Animal Evolution 

 

It is clear that No First Presidency statement has been revealed that condemns an Old Earth, Death Before the Fall, Global Warming, and Animal Evolution. 

 

Gospel Topics article says that The Fall brought death into the world. 

"The Fall of Adam brought physical death into the world (see Moses 6:48). Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all mankind will be resurrected and redeemed from physical death."

https://www.lds.org/topics/death-physical?lang=eng

 

"The world" has many different meanings , for example "the world" in John 3:17 is the family of Adam, not the planet.

 

The World = Family of Adam 

 

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"

 

2 Nephi 9:21 "he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam"

 

The Scriptures say that Adam was "the first flesh." The Guide to the Scriptures says that "flesh" has many meanings. I believe that Adam was the first man that transgressed. I also believe that Adam was the first human of our family that became mortal. 

 

"Flesh has several meanings: (1) the soft tissue that makes up the bodies of mankind, animals, fowls, or fish; (2) mortality; or (3) the physical or carnal nature of man." 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/flesh

 

I am open to the idea that Adam is not literally the father of all humanity, for example, Gospel Topic article says, "It does not matter if a person's lineage in the house of Israel is through bloodlines or by adoption. Church members are counted as a descendant of Abraham and an heir to all the promises and blessings contained in the Abrahamic covenant"

https://www.lds.org/topics/patriarchal-blessings?lang=eng

 

2 Theories 

1) Every human born after the Fall of Adam is counted as a descendant of Adam. 

2) Adam is somehow the literal father of all humanity. I can speculate endless possibilities. 

 

The Answer: I don't know , but I think that Adam is somehow the most recent common ancestor of all modern humanity. 

 

Finally, I don't think that the First Presidency Statement condemns the theory that God directly created Adam inside the womb of a homo sapien  (see Jeremiah 1:5)  

Edited June 21, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[williamsmith]

All that article does is simply address the furver in that day over Evolution.....

The Church was simply making clear that man did not "evolve" from Apes.  That's it.

[CV75]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

In addition to "world" and flesh", “creature” (2 Nephi 9:21) has many meanings, too, which might be more pertinent to how life on this planet was and is organized.

 

"Creature" can be an animal (as distinct from a human being) or a human being. Archaic: anything living or existing. It can refer to a person of a specified kind (as in the family of Adam), typically one viewed with pity, contempt, or desire (this is the nature of fallen man); a person considered to be under the complete control of another (without the Redemption, we are under the control of Satan; and we are subject to sin and death).

 

So perhaps the family of Adam includes all life since it all falls under his stewardship (Genesis 1:26). Maybe this has as much to do with how life came out of the Garden of Eden, or with life after its exit from the Garden, as with how various life forms got into it, but science has only been able or willing to address the first two within the constraints of not acknowledging Adam or the Garden--which is reasonable; what more can it do?

 

However all forms of mortal life came to be, it is all dependent on Adam by delegation from the Lord and is ultimately dependent on the Lord (“All the prophets who have held keys of priesthood authority upon the earth will come to this council to give a report of their work to Adam. Jesus Christ will then come to Adam-ondi-Ahman, and Adam will return the priesthood keys to him.” -- https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-5-doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history/lesson-30-adam-ondi-ahman?lang=eng).

 

“Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he [who] will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 157).

 

More detail on yet other aspects of Adam’s comprehensive stewardship over all things pertaining to this world (past, present, future), and how it began in the pre-mortal phase:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/01/the-man-adam?lang=eng

 

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Adam

[BCSpace]

I think one ought to differentiate between the Fall and teh Garden when it comes to "no death".  That there was no death before the Fall is doctrine.  However, one can say there was death before the Garden state and no death before the Fall at the same time without conflict.

[cinepro]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

 

It is clear that the Origin of Man by the First Presidency doesn't talk about: 

1) A Young Earth 

2) No Animal Death Before the Fall 

3) Animal Evolution 

 

Just so I'm clear, do you believe that the Earth and all things on it were "spiritually" created before they were physically created?

 

“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them, and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

 

Moses 3:5

 

If so, how does this work with evolution?  Suppose there were 10,000,000 generations of evolution between an indohyus and a dolphin.  How does this work with a "spiritual creation"?

[thesometimesaint]

Just so I'm clear, do you believe that the Earth and all things on it were "spiritually" created before they were physically created?

 

If so, how does this work with evolution?  Suppose there were 10,000,000 generations of evolution between an indohyus and a dolphin.  How does this work with a "spiritual creation"?

 

Eternal Progression.

[BCSpace]

If so, how does this work with evolution?  Suppose there were 10,000,000 generations of evolution between an indohyus and a dolphin.  How does this work with a "spiritual creation"?

 

 

How does it not?  What is your concern?  The length of time?

[Rob Osborn]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

 

It is clear that the Origin of Man by the First Presidency doesn't talk about: 

1) A Young Earth 

2) No Animal Death Before the Fall 

3) Animal Evolution 

 

It is clear that No First Presidency statement has been revealed that condemns an Old Earth, Death Before the Fall, Global Warming, and Animal Evolution. 

 

Gospel Topics article says that The Fall brought death into the world. 

"The Fall of Adam brought physical death into the world (see Moses 6:48). Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all mankind will be resurrected and redeemed from physical death."

https://www.lds.org/topics/death-physical?lang=eng

 

"The world" has many different meanings , for example "the world" in John 3:17 is the family of Adam, not the planet.

 

The World = Family of Adam 

 

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"

 

2 Nephi 9:21 "he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam"

 

The Scriptures say that Adam was "the first flesh." The Guide to the Scriptures says that "flesh" has many meanings. I believe that Adam was the first man that transgressed. I also believe that Adam was the first human of our family that became mortal. 

 

"Flesh has several meanings: (1) the soft tissue that makes up the bodies of mankind, animals, fowls, or fish; (2) mortality; or (3) the physical or carnal nature of man." 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/flesh

 

I am open to the idea that Adam is not literally the father of all humanity, for example, Gospel Topic article says, "It does not matter if a person's lineage in the house of Israel is through bloodlines or by adoption. Church members are counted as a descendant of Abraham and an heir to all the promises and blessings contained in the Abrahamic covenant"

https://www.lds.org/topics/patriarchal-blessings?lang=eng

 

2 Theories 

1) Every human born after the Fall of Adam is counted as a descendant of Adam. 

2) Adam is somehow the literal father of all humanity. I can speculate endless possibilities. 

 

The Answer: I don't know , but I think that Adam is somehow the most recent common ancestor of all modern humanity. 

 

Finally, I don't think that the First Presidency Statement condemns the theory that God directly created Adam inside the womb of a homo sapien  (see Jeremiah 1:5)

The answer seems pretty obvious that The Church has stated that man is not the result of evolution. If man did not evolve, then it pretty much throws doubt on the entire animal kingdom on if they evolved.

[MormonFreeThinker]

The answer seems pretty obvious that The Church has stated that man is not the result of evolution. If man did not evolve, then it pretty much throws doubt on the entire animal kingdom on if they evolved.

 

Rob,

 

You don't have to believe in Human Evolution, but you should at least believe in animal Evolution and death before the Fall. 

I hope you do, because the scientific evidence is strong. 

[thesometimesaint]

Rob,

 

You don't have to believe in Human Evolution, but you should at least believe in animal Evolution and death before the Fall. 

I hope you do, because the scientific evidence is strong. 

 

I don't believe in Evolution. However I do accept it as the best explanation of how life changed once it got here.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

 

You don't have to believe in Human Evolution, but you should at least believe in animal Evolution and death before the Fall. 

I hope you do, because the scientific evidence is strong. 

The scientific evidence is strong that there was a global flood that killed and buried billions and billions of life foorms.

[ERayR]

I think one ought to differentiate between the Fall and teh Garden when it comes to "no death".  That there was no death before the Fall is doctrine.  However, one can say there was death before the Garden state and no death before the Fall at the same time without conflict.

 

The Garden was a discrete place on the earth, not the whole earth. Death outside, no death inside.

[cinepro]

How does it not?  What is your concern?  The length of time?

 

Just explain to me how it worked. We have the scriptures that say God "created all things spiritually before they were upon the face of the earth", and we have the theory of evolution which says that the variety of animals and plants evolved through natural selection over millions of years.

 

So walk me through it.  Obviously, the "easy" answer if you want to believe both theories are true is that God created in spirit form all the generations of evolution before He placed them on the earth.  This would include evolutionary "dead ends".   So if you were in heaven during the creation, you would have seen bazillions of animals and plants in spirit form, and you could have lined up the entire evolutionary tree in spirit form and seen how it was all going to play out from the start to....  now?  But if the creation process was evolution, and evolution is continuing to this day, then how can we say that the creation ever finished?  God would still be spiritually and physically "creating" up to this very moment as each new plant and animal evolves.

 

So I guess 2 Nephi 2:22 was wrong when it referred to things staying in the same state that they were "after" they were "created", since to this day things have been evolving into new forms.  And of course if couldn't have been referring to specific individual plants and animals, since they had been dying long before Adam and Eve were around, so it's not like they were in any danger of staying in the "same state".

 

Truly odd.

Edited June 23, 2014 by cinepro

[CV75]

 2 Nephi 2:22

My 2 cents:

 

Verse 22 refers to all things which were created in the garden before the Fall, not everything that ever would be created after the Fall. There may not have been all that many things in the garden (just "kinds"), and these relatively few things could well have diversified into many life forms after the Fall through the forces of nature, including Adam’s efforts at plant and animal husbandry.

 

Also, “the state in which they were after they were created” seems to mean an untested terrestrial condition for Adam (and there would not have even been an Eve if he remained in the same state, with his rib and all), or a terrestrial condition separated from Adam’s stewardship for all the other things. Without this relationship between Adam and all other things, there would be nothing to act or be acted upon. Everything would have existed separately and singly without any reference point, effectively bringing about the problem laid out in verse 13.

 

On top of that, another consideration is that after the Fall, not all things left the garden at once, and that Adam and Eve were the last to exit after many millions of years. This allowed plenty of time for nature to take it course.

Edited June 24, 2014 by CV75

[ERayR]

Just explain to me how it worked. We have the scriptures that say God "created all things spiritually before they were upon the face of the earth", and we have the theory of evolution which says that the variety of animals and plants evolved through natural selection over millions of years.

 

So walk me through it.  Obviously, the "easy" answer if you want to believe both theories are true is that God created in spirit form all the generations of evolution before He placed them on the earth.  This would include evolutionary "dead ends".   So if you were in heaven during the creation, you would have seen bazillions of animals and plants in spirit form, and you could have lined up the entire evolutionary tree in spirit form and seen how it was all going to play out from the start to....  now?  But if the creation process was evolution, and evolution is continuing to this day, then how can we say that the creation ever finished?  God would still be spiritually and physically "creating" up to this very moment as each new plant and animal evolves.

 

So I guess 2 Nephi 2:22 was wrong when it referred to things staying in the same state that they were "after" they were "created", since to this day things have been evolving into new forms.  And of course if couldn't have been referring to specific individual plants and animals, since they had been dying long before Adam and Eve were around, so it's not like they were in any danger of staying in the "same state".

 

Truly odd.

 

That's what happens when one tries to have the best of both.  One ends up with a lot of ends that do not match up very well. All looks good as long as one doesn't pull the threads.

Edited June 24, 2014 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

Just explain to me how it worked. We have the scriptures that say God "created all things spiritually before they were upon the face of the earth", and we have the theory of evolution which says that the variety of animals and plants evolved through natural selection over millions of years.

 

So walk me through it.  Obviously, the "easy" answer if you want to believe both theories are true is that God created in spirit form all the generations of evolution before He placed them on the earth.  This would include evolutionary "dead ends".   So if you were in heaven during the creation, you would have seen bazillions of animals and plants in spirit form, and you could have lined up the entire evolutionary tree in spirit form and seen how it was all going to play out from the start to....  now?  But if the creation process was evolution, and evolution is continuing to this day, then how can we say that the creation ever finished?  God would still be spiritually and physically "creating" up to this very moment as each new plant and animal evolves.

 

So I guess 2 Nephi 2:22 was wrong when it referred to things staying in the same state that they were "after" they were "created", since to this day things have been evolving into new forms.  And of course if couldn't have been referring to specific individual plants and animals, since they had been dying long before Adam and Eve were around, so it's not like they were in any danger of staying in the "same state".

 

Truly odd.

 

That's an easy one. It is the difference between designing a car on paper, and then building that car.

 

Why not. We build new and different "kinds" of vehicles all the time. There is nothing in my understanding of the Gospel that would preclude God from doing it. Really what concern is it of mine if sometime in the future God decides to make better mortal versions of us?

 

You're guessing wrong. I have no desire to go back to being a small child but that is how God created me.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Just so I'm clear, do you believe that the Earth and all things on it were "spiritually" created before they were physically created?

 

Yes, I believe that all humans were spiritually created before being born. 

 

If Evolution is against church doctrine, why haven't modern apostles condemn it? Why are they not worried that members like me believe it?

 

"The entire transcript of the interview is reproduced by permission here on the Newsroom Web site and can also be found at www.pewforum.org."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/pew-forum-interviews-church-leaders

 

"The Scripture describing the Lord as the creator of all of these things says very little about how it was done. I don’t know of anybody in the ranks of the First Presidency and the Twelve [Apostles] who has ever spent much time worrying about this matter of evolution." - Elder Lance B. Wickman

http://www.pewforum.org/2007/05/16/in-focus-mormonism-in-modern-america/

Edited June 24, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Rob Osborn]

Perhaps- when one knows the truth it doesnt worry them much. They have a bigger job of saving souls. I do know this- the church has never officially taught that man is the product of evolution. You will not find that doctrine anywhere in LDS teachings.

[MormonFreeThinker]

. You will not find that doctrine anywhere in LDS teachings.

 

I agree, the church does not have an official position on Evolution. 

 

Perhaps- when one knows the truth it doesnt worry them much.

 

They are worried about other subjects, for example

"The concept of reincarnation involves being born into the world again in a different form and is false doctrine."

Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), 47–59

 

You will not find a similar statement against the Theory of Evolution in Preach My Gospel.

Edited June 24, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Rob Osborn]

What you will find however is the teachings that Adam is not the result of evolution. Its set in stone- its completely obvious- man did not evolve from a lower order of animals. Its doctrine, its what the church officially teaches. Lets move on.

[MormonFreeThinker]

What you will find however is the teachings that Adam is not the result of evolution. Its set in stone- its completely obvious- man did not evolve from a lower order of animals. Its doctrine, its what the church officially teaches. Lets move on.

 

Not in Preach my Gospel, show me.

I agree that Adam was not created by Evolution, I believe that Adam was created by a God that used natural processes, not magic.

 

"The Scripture describing the Lord as the creator of all of these things says very little about how it was done. I don’t know of anybody in the ranks of the First Presidency and the Twelve [Apostles] who has ever spent much time worrying about this matter of evolution." - Elder Lance B. Wickman

http://www.pewforum.org/2007/05/16/in-focus-mormonism-in-modern-america/

 

If Evolution is against church doctrine, why are the modern Apostles not worried that many members like me believe it? Why are they not worried that the BYU Biology department takes Evolution seriously?

Edited June 24, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Ahab]

Just explain to me how it worked. We have the scriptures that say God "created all things spiritually before they were upon the face of the earth", and we have the theory of evolution which says that the variety of animals and plants evolved through natural selection over millions of years.

So walk me through it.

Let's start by replacing the word created with organized. Too many people tend to think he started with nothing.

Next let's realize that all living beings have a spirit and that the spirit is what actually makes a being a living being, rather than a dead being or more precisely a mortal body without the spirit in it. And let's also realize that a spirit is eternal, meaning that it is always living in some state or form and can never be extinguished, whether or not it has offspring or is only the offspring or what will someday develop into the offspring of its parents.

Are you getting the picture? At this point you should have an image in your mind of spirits living in heaven with God organizing them before they were sent to this planet, and before the materials of the planet itself were organized into this planet. God and us and animals and plants of all kinds living with God in heaven.

And then at some point God does what the Genesis text says he did, however long those periods of light were that God called days, sending some of those spirits/living beings in heaven to this planet after preparing this planet for them. Living forever, because death hadn't been introduced to this planet by Adam and Eve yet.

Is that enough of an intro for you?

Obviously, the "easy" answer if you want to believe both theories are true is that God created in spirit form all the generations of evolution before He placed them on the earth. This would include evolutionary "dead ends". So if you were in heaven during the creation, you would have seen bazillions of animals and plants in spirit form, and you could have lined up the entire evolutionary tree in spirit form and seen how it was all going to play out from the start to.... now? But if the creation process was evolution, and evolution is continuing to this day, then how can we say that the creation ever finished? God would still be spiritually and physically "creating" up to this very moment as each new plant and animal evolves.

So I guess 2 Nephi 2:22 was wrong when it referred to things staying in the same state that they were "after" they were "created", since to this day things have been evolving into new forms. And of course if couldn't have been referring to specific individual plants and animals, since they had been dying long before Adam and Eve were around, so it's not like they were in any danger of staying in the "same state".

Truly odd.

Yeah, that other stuff you mention sounds odd, to say the least, to me too.

[mfbukowski]

Just so I'm clear, do you believe that the Earth and all things on it were "spiritually" created before they were physically created?

 

 

 

 

If so, how does this work with evolution?  Suppose there were 10,000,000 generations of evolution between an indohyus and a dolphin.  How does this work with a "spiritual creation"?

Seriously?

If we are all pre-existent individuals why aren't animals? All are intelligences of different kinds from single cell animals to God himself- I think there is plenty of room for intermediary intelligences.

I think the intelligences they get are the bodies they get. I would kind of like to be an Orca myself.

But seriously, for the more fundamentalistic, one could easily postulate that each individual creature was planned and organized by God. After all he IS God, it's not like he runs out of abilities to do things or anything.

Edited June 24, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The scientific evidence is strong that there was a global flood that killed and buried billions and billions of life foorms.

Where did the water come from, and go? Whats the science for that?

[mfbukowski]

What you will find however is the teachings that Adam is not the result of evolution. Its set in stone- its completely obvious- man did not evolve from a lower order of animals. Its doctrine, its what the church officially teaches. Lets move on.

Fine with me, stop feeding the trolls then!

You are the one that drives most of these threads by arguing with them!