Popular Post Mystery Meat Posted May 8, 2014 Popular Post Posted May 8, 2014 If I think about what I would do if I were trying to destroy God's plan I think I would do exactly what we see happening in the world today. As a society we are all disgusted with the prejudices in the past. And rightfully so. The things that happened and the things that we did as a country and as a society are truly deplorable. But I find it fascinating that part of the reason at least in my opinion, that a lot of people who support same sex marriage do so precisely because they don't want to be labeled as a bigot. I think Satan, and I do believe he is behind it, has done a masterful job of equating racial bias with a firm belief that same sex marriage is a violation of heavenly law. I am sure many will disagree, but let me ask you this. If marriage between man and woman is the only form of marriage God approves of, how better to win advocate to your cause then by making those who support Gods law bigots for doing so. 5
mormonnewb Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Were the Christians who believed that blacks should be enslaved/segregated because of the mark of Cain or curse of Ham any less bigots because their prejudice was "based" on the Bible?In my very biased opinion, the Bible isn't a Get-out-of-social-stigma card. Edited May 8, 2014 by mormonnewb 2
Disciple? Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 If I think about what I would do if I were trying to destroy God's plan I think I would do exactly what we see happening in the world today. As a society we are all disgusted with the prejudices in the past. And rightfully so. The things that happened and the things that we did as a country and as a society are truly deplorable. But I find it fascinating that part of the reason at least in my opinion, that a lot of people who support same sex marriage do so precisely because they don't want to be labeled as a bigot. I think Satan, and I do believe he is behind it, has done a masterful job of equating racial bias with a firm belief that same sex marriage is a violation of heavenly law.I am sure many will disagree, but let me ask you this. If marriage between man and woman is the only form of marriage God approves of, how better to win advocate to your cause then by making those who support Gods law bigots for doing so. I think the reason people support gay marriage and gays in general is because it is a reality. Let me share my favorite story -- there is a gay person I know who does not want to be gay. If being gay is a choice, why does this person who does not want to be gay choose not to be gay.
Mystery Meat Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 Were the Christians who believed that blacks should be enslaved/segregated because of the mark of Cain or curse of Ham any less bigots because their prejudice was "based" on the Bible?I think you are helping me prove my point here. I don't be equate racial prejudice with disagreement over the morality of same-sex marriage. Thus, I think any appeals to racial bigotry in the past are completely irrelevant to the current issue of same sex marriage.
Mystery Meat Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 I think the reason people support gay marriage and gays in general is because it is a reality. Let me share my favorite story -- there is a gay person I know who does not want to be gay. If being gay is a choice, why does this person who does not want to be gay choose not to be gay.I am NOT saying that it is a choice. So I'm not sure how that's relevant to this thread.
Disciple? Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I am NOT saying that it is a choice. So I'm not sure how that's relevant to this thread.If being gay is not a choice why does Heavenly Father allow people to be born gay?
Popular Post The Nehor Posted May 8, 2014 Popular Post Posted May 8, 2014 He is not nearly as clever as he imagines himself to be. Luckily for him humanity is not that bright so he does not really need brilliance. I mean his plans are not original. He tries the same stuff every time......... and we keep falling for it.....every time. 8
Raharu Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 According to the link found in the Hot Button Topics post at the top of the forum: Where the Church stands:The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Apparently, God allows people to be born gay because "The attraction itself is not a sin..."
Disciple? Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 According to the link found in the Hot Button Topics post at the top of the forum: Apparently, God allows people to be born gay because "The attraction itself is not a sin..." I just had a stupor of thought, carry on folks. 1
The Nehor Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 If being gay is not a choice why does Heavenly Father allow people to be born gay? I'll put that on my list of questions alongside why kidney stones are so damn painful, why autism exists, why some people are sterile, why some people are crippled with depression, and why He thinks the whole suffering quota on this planet needs to be so high that it seems excessive. Life involves a lot of pain and suffering. Some get more then others. Everyone gets quite a bit. God seems to think it is worth it. On my better days I can agree with him. 3
BCSpace Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 If being gay is not a choice why does Heavenly Father allow people to be born gay? If not a choice, Ether 12:27 is your answer.
changed Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 My aunt is gay, she asked me once about my views, I told her Christianity is a religion based on sacrifice - the Abrahamic sacrifice, the atonement... that we're all asked to give something up "not my will but thine" but that somehow letting go of it all is the only way to have it all. 3
california boy Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Am I the only who remembers growing up with the church teaching how false it was to believe that forbidding to marry was Satans plan and that the Bible clearly taught that "it is not good for man to be alone? And a sign in the latter days where false men would forbid marriage?1 Timothy 4:3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.It is so easy to claim that the other guy is following Satans plan and a sign of the false church isn't it. 3
Porter_Rockwell Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Were the Christians who believed that blacks should be enslaved/segregated because of the mark of Cain or curse of Ham any less bigots because their prejudice was "based" on the Bible?In my very biased opinion, the Bible isn't a Get-out-of-social-stigma card.Religion promotes us and them thinking. The bible is very passive if not complicit in slavery (don't beat them too hard...essentially). What Christians believed what you allege? Are you talking about Mormon teachings and doctrine?
mormonnewb Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I think you are helping me prove my point here. I don't be equate racial prejudice with disagreement over the morality of same-sex marriage. Thus, I think any appeals to racial bigotry in the past are completely irrelevant to the current issue of same sex marriage. I should have made my point more clearly. I have no problem with people of the past being called "bigots" for their discrimination against blacks, even though it was arguably Biblically-based. I feel the exact same way about discrimination against gays. Even if you can make a Biblical-claim to deny them equal rights, people will ultimately view you just as we now view those who were opposed to interracial marriage, blacks in the priesthood, etc. If we were to give a pass to everyone who claimed a religious basis for mistreating others, almost NO ONE could be blamed for their bad actions. 1
Popular Post Brian 2.0 Posted May 8, 2014 Popular Post Posted May 8, 2014 I think Satan has done a masterful job in convincing people to believe that those who support the right for gays to marry are fighting against God's law. 5
mormonnewb Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Religion promotes us and them thinking. The bible is very passive if not complicit in slavery (don't beat them too hard...essentially). What Christians believed what you allege? Are you talking about Mormon teachings and doctrine? While I suspect you and I agree on much, I think your view of religion is a little too narrow. Yes, religion often causes division. Yet, it is the ONLY thing that we have found that also creates unity ... and progress. The drumbeat to end slavery in America was first beat by, you guessed it, northern CHURCHES. The civil rights movement was a movement born in, you guessed it, southern black CHURCHES. In fact, even secular movements, such as the labor movement, owe much of their success to the Catholic Church and others. And while we are generally slow (too slow in my opinion) to come around, when we do, we mobilize resources and commitment that is unrivaled by what, say, a group of college professors could ever muster. As for curse of Cain/Ham, my understanding is that several mainline Protestant groups bought into the theory, most notably the Southern Baptists. Given that we have "continuing revelation," we Mormons were able to take this theory to the "next level" with valiancy in the pre-existence, lack of buoyancy, et al.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) As I've said elsewhere: [i don't think God cares] if we think He’s racist or sexist or homophobic or politically incorrect. If this really is His Church and Kingdom on the Earth today, He runs it, period. Edited May 8, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) 2 Nephi 28:22 and 2 Nephi 15:20 (Isaiah 5:20) also come to mind. Edited May 8, 2014 by Kenngo1969
The Nehor Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I think Satan has done a masterful job in convincing people to believe that those who support the right for gays to marry are fighting against God's law.Indeed, he even won over the apostles and prophets. 1
Gray Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 If I think about what I would do if I were trying to destroy God's plan I think I would do exactly what we see happening in the world today. As a society we are all disgusted with the prejudices in the past. And rightfully so. The things that happened and the things that we did as a country and as a society are truly deplorable. But I find it fascinating that part of the reason at least in my opinion, that a lot of people who support same sex marriage do so precisely because they don't want to be labeled as a bigot. I think Satan, and I do believe he is behind it, has done a masterful job of equating racial bias with a firm belief that same sex marriage is a violation of heavenly law.I am sure many will disagree, but let me ask you this. If marriage between man and woman is the only form of marriage God approves of, how better to win advocate to your cause then by making those who support Gods law bigots for doing so. The same moral impulse that has lead us to reject racism is also driving the push for marriage equality. It's a good moral impulse, nothing to do with satan. Part of what drives it is empathy. When we get to know the "other" we see that they're a lot like us - good people trying to live good lives. We're less apt to think there is some wickedness behind their otherness as we get to know them, and find they don't fit the stereotypes we had about them in our heads. That applies to this generation as well as to generations past 1
Mystery Meat Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 I should have made my point more clearly. I have no problem with people of the past being called "bigots" for their discrimination against blacks, even though it was arguably Biblically-based. I feel the exact same way about discrimination against gays. Even if you can make a Biblical-claim to deny them equal rights, people will ultimately view you just as we now view those who were opposed to interracial marriage, blacks in the priesthood, etc. If we were to give a pass to everyone who claimed a religious basis for mistreating others, almost NO ONE could be blamed for their bad actions. I don't really disagree with you here. I will be labeled a bigot and as hateful. I have come to terms with the fact that in the eyes of man I will come out on the wrong side of history. I am very glad, however, that I know how God feels on the matter and that I am not a bigot or hateful in his eyes.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I will be labeled a bigot and as hateful. It is good to note that the labeling goes both ways. In this thread you have implied that many who support same-sex marriage have been deceived by Satan. Homosexuality has been labeled by top leaders in the church as a perversion, sinful, an abomination, as "distorting loving relationships", heinous, and as the reason several civilizations went out of existence. I'd say bigot is pretty tame. 1
Mystery Meat Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 It is good to note that the labeling goes both ways. In this thread you have implied that many who support same-sex marriage have been deceived by Satan. Homosexuality has been labeled by top leaders in the church as a perversion, sinful, an abomination, as "distorting loving relationships", heinous, and as the reason several civilizations went out of existence. I'd say bigot is pretty tame. You are right I could see how people could see such an implication. So just to clear up any confusion let me be more expressive: All who support same-sex marriage, even if their intentions are pure, well and good, have been deceived by the cunning plans of Satan. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 You are right I could see how people could see such an implication. So just to clear up any confusion let me be more expressive: All who support same-sex marriage, even if their intentions are pure, well and good, have been deceived by the cunning plans of Satan. Ha! In my first draft was much more direct, but I softened it and backed off so I wouldn't put words in your mouth.
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