How Can I Respond To A Friend's Criticism Of Joseph Smith?

[cinepro]

The saints came to nauvoo for a peaceful life after suffering some horrific persecution. It would only make sense that they would want to close down a tabloid meant to stir the pot.

 

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Joseph Smith (and the Mormons in general) wouldn't really, really want to "close down" a pot-stirring newspaper.  But isn't that kind of the whole reason for having a "freedom of the press"? 

 

Or does that protection only apply to newspapers that people don't want to "close down"?

Edited May 2, 2014 by cinepro

[mrmendoza]

How could the mayor be too involved in politics?

By being  President of the LDS Church, Mayor and Chief Magistrate of the City Government, candidate for the US Presidency !

i wrote a report on this just a few minutes ago but when I submitted it, It dissappeared! I've only just started getting back involved on the board again. I guess I don't know what I'm doing. Can somebody out there find my report and put it back as a reply to this post? I really hate trying to rewrite something like that from scratch!

Edited May 2, 2014 by mrmendoza

[ERayR]

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Joseph Smith (and the Mormons in general) wouldn't really, really want to "close down" a pot-stirring newspaper.  But isn't that kind of the whole reason for having a "freedom of the press"? 

 

Or does that protection only apply to newspapers that people don't want to "close down"?

 

That approach was not peculiar to Nauvoo or the Mormon community in that time period.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=i9zGGYTqJnsC&pg=PT352&lpg=PT352&dq=1840+destroying+printing+presses&source=bl&ots=eYUJlFgY23&sig=8NutQfKfMvQkMc5h0ENh-kzukp0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DARkU7MjxfWgBLfEgeAO&ved=0CGkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=1840%20destroying%20printing%20presses&f=false

Edited May 2, 2014 by ERayR

[why me]

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Joseph Smith (and the Mormons in general) wouldn't really, really want to "close down" a pot-stirring newspaper.  But isn't that kind of the whole reason for having a "freedom of the press"? 

 

Or does that protection only apply to newspapers that people don't want to "close down"?

The people back then had a different concept when it came to a free press. But we need to remember that in the neighboring area there was an antimormon paper in Warsaw, riling the mobs. I can see why the saints would be fed up with 'gentile' newspapers stirring the pot against them. I also believe that destroying the paper gave the mormons a sense of safety for at least a brief morment.

[Walden]

I actually think that it needed to be destroyed. It was a threat to public safety and it was meant to be so. We also need to remember that mormon presses were also destroyed in Missiouri and nothing happened to the perpetrators of these acts. The saints came to nauvoo for a peaceful life after suffering some horrific persecution. It would only make sense that they would want to close down a tabloid meant to stir the pot.

 

Stir the pot? Joseph Smith was an instigator of a very high magnitude, one who commanded a religious militia, presided as mayor over a theocratic city-state, and secretly married other men's wives, and/or made advances on other man's wives, and yet when the truth of this plural marriage activity is to be exposed by the Expositor, Smith orders it destroyed and yet the newspaper is the one stirring the pot?

 

I don't think that the truth can be found in either Joseph Smith's account or the account of his adversaries, but somewhere in between. Yes, the Expositor was being contentious and was being used as a tool to foment ill will towards Smith, though if someone were to propose marriage to my wife, I might harbor ill will towards them all the same.

 

But to try to frame Smith as some innocent lamb going to the slaughter, without acknowledging his own role in the contentiousness of the time and place, is a failure in objectivity, and thus reality.

[pogi]

By being  President of the LDS Church, Mayor and Chief Magistrate of the City Government, candidate for the US Presidency !

i wrote a report on this just a few minutes ago but when I submitted it, It dissappeared! I've only just started getting back involved on the board again. I guess I don't know what I'm doing. Can somebody out there find my report and put it back as a reply to this post? I really hate trying to rewrite something like that from scratch!

 

I hate when that happens!  But good news, I think I found your report:

 

Pogi, you rock!

 

Well, it wasn't really that lengthy, but I do agree with it!  In all seriousness, whenever I am writting a lengthy response, I always type it first in another word document to protect it for that reasons. Then copy paste. 

[mrmendoza]

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that Joseph Smith (and the Mormons in general) wouldn't really, really want to "close down" a pot-stirring newspaper.  But isn't that kind of the whole reason for having a "freedom of the press"? 

 

Or does that protection only apply to newspapers that people don't want to "close down"?

Try to remember the timeframe we're talking about here. Even though we today take it more or less for granted that the press can do just about anything it wants,(hardcore porn for instence) in the early days of the country things weren't quite so clear!

Remember The ailen and sedation acts signed by no less a founding father the John Adams! I'm not sure whether they actually destroyed any presses, but they actually did put people in jail for writing liablous things against the presiding authorities!

Mike

[mrmendoza]

I hate when that happens!  But good news, I think I found your report:

 

 

Well, it wasn't really that lengthy, but I do agree with it!  In all seriousness, whenever I am writting a lengthy response, I always type it first in another word document to protect it for that reasons. Then copy paste. 

So, what did you do with it?

[pogi]

So, what did you do with it?

 

All it said were the words, "Pogi, you rock!"

[Bikeemikey]

The people back then had a different concept when it came to a free press. But we need to remember that in the neighboring area there was an antimormon paper in Warsaw, riling the mobs. I can see why the saints would be fed up with 'gentile' newspapers stirring the pot against them. I also believe that destroying the paper gave the mormons a sense of safety for at least a brief morment.

However, in this instance the truth was polygamy was being practiced.

It is such a nuisance when people stir up trouble against me by telling people what I am doing.

[cinepro]

I hate when that happens!  But good news, I think I found your report:

 

 

Well, it wasn't really that lengthy, but I do agree with it!  In all seriousness, whenever I am writting a lengthy response, I always type it first in another word document to protect it for that reasons. Then copy paste. 

 

Lazarus people!

[omni]

I think that your view that a mob response to the destruction of the printing press in Nauvoo lacks merit is clearly a case of 21st century perspectivism. Certainly nobody deserved to be murdered over the event, but a heightened sense of paranoia, leading to a mob response, is understandable. If you can provide an excuse for the destruction of the printing press as you have done, and which I would not argue either given the history that the Saints had recently endured, surely you can see how the other side might also have a case.

 

Remember that in 1844, the United States was still a very young nation, one which only 70 years earlier had waged a war against an oppressive government who had maintained tight controls over the press, over the financial institutions and over the political systems of this nation. Residents of Nauvoo and the surrounding areas likely had parents or grandparents who had experienced such oppression and were raised with stories of that time. Thus, the rights, freedoms and priviledges granted by the Constitution were not just some ancient history to be taken for granted, but seen as a real and substantial victory in this country's perculiar "experiment" in freedom and liberty.

 

Now, you put a figure like Joseph Smith into such a fray....here is a man who, in the eyes of many (particulalry those outside the faith), was attempting to create a theocracy with it's own militia (the Nauvoo Legion being the largest militia in the US, with Smith as the commandeer), a burgeoining "city-state" with Smith as mayor, and a new and peculiar (some might say blasphemous) religion, with Smith as Prophet, Seer and Revelator of a religion that practiced polygamy and maintained exclusive, mystical temple rituals....you can see why some were growing nervous regarding Smith's power and influence over the region, no?

 

And again, one must consider the implications in the mind of a mid-19th century US citizen regarding the destruction of a printing press. It's not like there were other avenues, such as radio, television or the internet for the dissemination of information. The destruction of a printing press was likely seen as a threat to the tenets of free speech itself, a lawless gesture intended to stifle dissent against government...the very same principles that these people's fathers and grandfathers might have fought against 70 years earlier. It's not like Smith's mob was destroying a washing machine, they were destroying an instrument of free speech and conduit of information.

 

Surely if you can excuse the destruction of the printing press as "somewhat understandable given the history the Saints had gone through," then you can sympathize with the formation of a mob in response to that destruction, considering the history that the young nation had gone through in securing those freedoms of press and free speech. 

 

Again, nobody in their right mind would condone the subsequent murders that followed, but to excuse the Saints behavior in destroying the printing press while being aghast at the formation of a mob in response to that destruction seems self-serving.   

 

I think you may have been reading more into my post than I intended.  I stated that destroying the press was "clearly wrong" and that the violent actions of the mob (killing Joseph) were without merit.  After readying your post, it looks like we are both in agreement on these.  Considering the persecution the Saints had been through and the high emotional state of affairs brought on by the situation, I can understand why they did it without actually condoning their actions.

[why me]

Stir the pot? Joseph Smith was an instigator of a very high magnitude, one who commanded a religious militia, presided as mayor over a theocratic city-state, and secretly married other men's wives, and/or made advances on other man's wives, and yet when the truth of this plural marriage activity is to be exposed by the Expositor, Smith orders it destroyed and yet the newspaper is the one stirring the pot?

 

 

I wouldn't call it a religious militia but a people's militia organized to defend the people. We need to remember that there were other militias out there. So nothing new there. I also don't think that polygamy was all that secret. The women involved knew about it and their relatives also knew about it. Polygamy wasn't exposed with the expositor. The fear would be what would happen when it did get out among the mobs that the mormons were practicing polygamy. I would think much bloodshed would have occrred. So, yes, the newspaper was stirring the pot. And of course, when the saints moved out of nauvoo, polygamy began to openly practiced. No fear of mobs.

[why me]

I think you may have been reading more into my post than I intended.  I stated that destroying the press was "clearly wrong" and that the violent actions of the mob (killing Joseph) were without merit.  After readying your post, it looks like we are both in agreement on these.  Considering the persecution the Saints had been through and the high emotional state of affairs brought on by the situation, I can understand why they did it without actually condoning their actions.

Lets look at this with some hindsight. Lets say that the paper would not have been destroyed. What would have happened? The protestant mobs would have read the paper, discovered polygamy and what do you think they would have done? Stay home and eat homemade apple pie? They would have got their guns and their torches and attacked nauvoo. And what then? Countless people killed. By destroying the press many lives were saved on both sides.

[why me]

However, in this instance the truth was polygamy was being practiced.

It is such a nuisance when people stir up trouble against me by telling people what I am doing.

If by telling them what you were doing would mean the possible death of your family, I think that you would have burned it down too.

[pogi]

Lets look at this with some hindsight. Lets say that the paper would not have been destroyed. What would have happened? The protestant mobs would have read the paper, discovered polygamy and what do you think they would have done? Stay home and eat homemade apple pie? They would have got their guns and their torches and attacked nauvoo. And what then? Countless people killed. By destroying the press many lives were saved on both sides.

 

I don't think people were that threatened by polygamy.  There were other religious groups practicing polygamy at the time which did not receive near this level of persecution or violence.  I think they were mostly threatened by the political power of the Mormons as abolitionists - the ticket Joseph was running for president on.  This did not sit well with their slave owning neighbors.  So, when the Mormons tried to cut off the opposing voice, I think that did it for them.  The Mormons were too much of a threat.  I think the polygamy was just another way to throw mud and tarnish the image of the presidential candidate and wasn't the reason for violence.

Edited May 2, 2014 by pogi

[mrmendoza]

All it said were the words, "Pogi, you rock!"

Nope, not my report!

Mike

[pogi]

Nope, not my report!

Mike

 

That's ok, I'll rub off on ya eventually.  But, you might have better luck with cinepro's Lazarus.  What a clever name!

Edited May 2, 2014 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

 I also don't think that polygamy was all that secret. The women involved knew about it and their relatives also knew about it. Polygamy wasn't exposed with the expositor. 

 

 

Lets look at this with some hindsight. Lets say that the paper would not have been destroyed. What would have happened? The protestant mobs would have read the paper, discovered polygamy and what do you think they would have done? 

 

You make my head spin sometimes.

[ERayR]

You make my head spin sometimes.

 

You are just not used to it.  Sit down and lower your head down between your knees and take five deep breaths.

[Porter_Rockwell]

Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who followed in the same vein as many of the prophets of old.

What are some of the things he correctly prophesied?

 

The Spirit always seeks after his own:

Is there only one 'answer', because he seems to have followed his spirit and the answer was that the mormon church is false. Is that a possible answer?

[cdowis]

Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who followed in the same vein as many of the prophets of old.

What are some of the things he correctly prophesied?

 

 

 

His own death, even though Gov Ford guaranteed his safety.

 

His name would be held for good and evil throughout the world.

 

The tremendous growth of the church, especially when compared to other churches established at that time.

Edited May 11, 2014 by cdowis

[eddie]

His own death, even though Gov Ford guaranteed his safety.

His name would be held for good and evil throughout the world.

The tremendous growth of the church, especially when compared to other churches established at that time.

The secession of South Carolina and the Civil War, and the request of the Confederacy to Great Britain for aid against the North.

The concept that tobacco and alcohol were harmful, as were hot drinks, and that our diets should be primarily grains and fruits mixed with meats and dairy. (Look at the food guide today for further information.)

Others have not yet been fulfilled such as the nature of the Second Coming.

Just for starters.

[Porter_Rockwell]

The secession of South Carolina and the Civil War, and the request of the Confederacy to Great Britain for aid against the North.

Wasn't that a topic being widely discussed at the time of the Civil War? That would just be his opinion...no?

The concept that tobacco and alcohol were harmful, as were hot drinks, and that our diets should be primarily grains and fruits mixed with meats and dairy. (Look at the food guide today for further information.)

Hot drinks aren't harmful. Alcohol is widely debated...particularly red wine. Most health guides are reconsidering their previous emphasis on dairy and meat

Others have not yet been fulfilled such as the nature of the Second Coming.

So this could be a false prophesy, too?

I thought a prophesy was supposed to be something no man could possibly know without Devine intervention. Those sound like opinions any human being could have had at the time. They're pretty mundane.

[eddie]

The secession of South Carolina and the Civil War, and the request of the Confederacy to Great Britain for aid against the North.

Wasn't that a topic being widely discussed at the time of the Civil War? That would just be his opinion...no?

The concept that tobacco and alcohol were harmful, as were hot drinks, and that our diets should be primarily grains and fruits mixed with meats and dairy. (Look at the food guide today for further information.)

Hot drinks aren't harmful. Alcohol is widely debated...particularly red wine. Most health guides are reconsidering their previous emphasis on dairy and meat

Others have not yet been fulfilled such as the nature of the Second Coming.

So this could be a false prophesy, too?

I thought a prophesy was supposed to be something no man could possibly know without Devine intervention. Those sound like opinions any human being could have had at the time. They're pretty mundane.

Well considering the Civil War wasn't for 29 years after the fact and he correctly prophesied not only that it would start, but also where it would start, and how the other states would react (asking for aid from the UK) is pretty spot on for just an educated guess.

As for the science behind alcohol, well argue the results. The laws of God transcend any understanding, including any modern day research. Just argue the results of those that live the laws of the gospel. Note this states some of the longest life spans ever recorded.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/post/mormonism-good-for-the-body-as-well-as-the-soul/2012/06/20/gJQARk3IqV_blog.html