Quotes Of Brigham Young Needed That Talk About The First Vision

[Tacenda]

Here's the quote from Kathleen Flake. For reference, Brigham Young died in 1877:

This would explain the lack of stories from neighbors or newpapers in the surrounding area.

[cinepro]

I did say that I'd heard that many early church members weren't aware of the first vision, but this upset the missionaries and they gave me a look that said, "what are you talking about?". One of them said, "Of course Joseph Smith talked often about his vision where God and Jesus appeared to him and so did Brigham Young."

 

 

Well, to be fair, Brigham Young would probably be just as surprised that modern LDS (and especially missionaries) don't talk about polygamy.

[cinepro]

Julie:

 

Here are a couple of good ones from Brigham Young out of Journal of Discourses. There are many more where he obliquely refers to the First Vision (e.g., "Joseph Smith in his youth had revelations from God," "From the day that Joseph obtained the plates, and previous to that time, the Lord dictated him."), but these blow up the claim that Brigham Young never referred to it.

 

(8:122) "Revival after revival and seceder after seceder follow in the footsteps of the reformer. He professes to teach purer and holier doctrine than has been taught; and the question arises, who is under obligation to obey that man's mandate? The Lord has not called him; Jesus has not appeared to him; Peter, James, and John have not met with him and conferred upon him the keys of the holy Priesthood; he has no communication with the heavens, only through the spirit of conviction. Such is the situation of the Christian world."  (Young compares systematically the experience and background of reformers with Joseph Smith's restoration experience, including what cannot be dismissed as the First Vision).

 

(8:354) "The Lord chose Joseph Smith, called upon him at fourteen years of age, gave him visions, and led him along, guided and directed him in his obscurity until he brought forth the plates and translated them"

 

(9:366) "Joseph Smith testified that he had received revelations from God, that holy angels had administered to him, that he had seen the heavens opened, had seen Jesus Christ and knew that he lived"

 

(12:67) " When the Lord called upon Joseph he was but a boy—a child, only about fourteen years of age. He was not filled with traditions; his mind was not made up to this, that, or the other. I very well recollect the reformation which took place in the country among the various denominations of Christians—the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and others—when Joseph was a boy. Joseph's mother, one of his brothers, and one, if not two, of his sisters were members of the Presbyterian Church, and on this account the Presbyterians hung to the family with great tenacity. And in the midst of these revivals among the religious bodies, the invitation, "Come and join our church," was often extended to Joseph, but more particularly from the Presbyterians. Joseph was naturally inclined to be religious, and being young, and surrounded with this excitement, no wonder that he became seriously impressed with the necessity of serving the Lord. But as the cry on every hand was, "Lo, here, is Christ," and "Lo, there!" Said he, "Lord, teach me, that I may know for myself, who among these are right." And what was the answer? "They are all out of the way; they have gone astray, and there is none that doeth good, no not one." When he found out that none were right, he began to inquire of the Lord what was right . . ."  (This one is interesting because Young claims to be personally familiar with the religious excitements that caused and drove the First Vision. He plainly refers to it in language paralleling the official version written in 1838).

 

 

If you keep in mind that Joseph also was visited by Jesus in the Kirtland Temple, we can't say that 8:122 and 9:366 refer specifically to the First Vision.

 

It's also important to remember that saying someone is "called by God" isn't necessarily referring to a physical visitation by embodied Father and Son deities.  In Christianity, it can have many different meanings (and most Christians would understandably not understand it to mean such a visit).  Even our Fifth Article of Faith claims that men must be "called of God", and it isn't referring to a physical visitation.

 

So if those are the best quotes from 30+ years of BY sermons, I don't think we're building a very strong case against the claim in the OP.

Edited April 17, 2014 by cinepro

[rongo]

If you keep in mind that Joseph also was visited by Jesus in the Kirtland Temple, we can't say that 8:122 and 9:366 refer specifically to the First Vision.

 

True. But, what is more of a stretch ---- claiming that he's obliquely referring to the Kirtland Temple, or claiming that he's referring to seeing the Savior as a teenager in upstate New York?

 

So if those are the best quotes from 30+ years of BY sermons, I don't think we're building a very strong case against the claim in the OP.

 

Okay. What do you think "called upon him at fourteen years of age" or "when . . . he was but a boy—a child, only about fourteen years of age" were referring to? Those are obviously referring to the First Vision, and not the Kirtland Temple, aren't they?

 

As I said above, the best First Vision references in Journal of Discourses are from Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and George A. Smith, not Brigham Young. But there is enough in just the few Brigham Young quotes I provided (especially the ones identifying the "calling upon him" as being fourteen years of age) to refute the claim that Brigham Young never referred to it. And, the oblique, vague ones are also very likely First Vision references in the traditional sense, especially given the context of what others like Pratt, Taylor, Smith, etc. were concurrently saying. Your quote from Flake and Allen is puzzling, given Orson Pratt's First Vision pamplets of the 1850s and 1860s ---- the First Vision was very much a part of our theology and religious dialogue far before " the last decade of the nineteenth century."

[cinepro]

True. But, what is more of a stretch ---- claiming that he's obliquely referring to the Kirtland Temple, or claiming that he's referring to seeing the Savior as a teenager in upstate New York?

 

 

 

 

Okay. What do you think "called upon him at fourteen years of age" or "when . . .

 he was but a boy—a child, only about fourteen years of age" were referring to? Those are obviously referring to the First Vision, and not the Kirtland Temple, aren't they?

You're making arguments that are based on context. Which is fine, but it can't be used to support the idea that Brigham Young taught something. For example, if Brigham Young said "The greatest event in the history of America happened in the spring of 1820", we might know from the context of being LDS that he is probably referring to the First Vision, but can we say that he "mentioned" it or "taught" it?

As I said above, the best First Vision references in Journal of Discourses are from Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and George A. Smith, not Brigham Young. But there is enough in just the few Brigham Young quotes I provided (especially the ones identifying the "calling upon him" as being fourteen years of age) to refute the claim that Brigham Young never referred to it. And, the oblique, vague ones are also very likely First Vision references in the traditional sense, especially given the context of what others like Pratt, Taylor, Smith, etc. were concurrently saying. Your quote from Flake and Allen is puzzling, given Orson Pratt's First Vision pamplets of the 1850s and 1860s ---- the First Vision was very much a part of our theology and religious dialogue far before "

I can't speak for Flake and Allen. 

[rongo]

 

You're making arguments that are based on context. Which is fine, but it can't be used to support the idea that Brigham Young taught something. For example, if Brigham Young said "The greatest event in the history of America happened in the spring of 1820", we might know from the context of being LDS that he is probably referring to the First Vision, but can we say that he "mentioned" it or "taught" it?

 

 

Absolutely. Unless one is being intentionally obtuse.

 

 

[DaddyB]

The question that needs to be asked is, "why is it important whether we have a record of Brigham actually teaching all the details of the first vision or not? If the question is meant to cast doubt on whether the vision actually happened, all of the quotes from his contemporaries that were endorsed by B.Y. should be enough to squash that idea. It is just a silly question for what it is intended.

[cinepro]

The question that needs to be asked is, "why is it important whether we have a record of Brigham actually teaching all the details of the first vision or not? If the question is meant to cast doubt on whether the vision actually happened, all of the quotes from his contemporaries that were endorsed by B.Y. should be enough to squash that idea. It is just a silly question for what it is intended.

 

The nature of the argument is the assumption some LDS have that the Church has always been kind of like it is now.  Therefore, it's shocking to find out that 19th century Mormons weren't bearing testimony of the First Vision all the time like modern LDS do.

 

But if you look at how the Church teaches about its early leaders, I can't really blame members for the assumption.

[ALarson]

The nature of the argument is the assumption some LDS have that the Church has always been kind of like it is now.  Therefore, it's shocking to find out that 19th century Mormons weren't bearing testimony of the First Vision all the time like modern LDS do.

I think this is how many current members may react to learning that Brigham Young did not give any speeches dedicated to or focused specifically on the first vision (that we know of).  One can speculate as to why this is the case, but really only Brigham Young knows why he chose not to.  He certainly did not hold back or avoid topics that he wanted to speak on, so one can surmise that this just wasn't one of those topics and he felt that other topics were more pressing at that time.

 

Brigham Young most definitely was aware of the first vision and he probably discussed it with Joseph Smith when he was still alive.  The first vision account evolved too and maybe the feelings of the early saints about it evolved as well.  Today it's just so cut and dried and we mainly only see the one version.  Also, our leaders today speak often about it and it is central to our beliefs of the restoration of the gospel.  So, it seems odd that the Prophet back then wouldn't have spoken specifically about it.  But to read anything negative into it isn't fair to do IMO. 

[cinepro]

Here's another data point for y'all.  It's the frequency with which the phrase "first vision" has been used in General Conference over the last 170+ years, courtesy of the BYU Conference Corpus:

 

 

For clarification, one of the 1870s references refers to Paul's "first vision", and one is from the heading to talk.

Edited April 19, 2014 by cinepro

[rongo]

I don't think anyone is claiming that it was called "The First Vision" during the Deseret era. That is a later development. But, they undoubtedly referred to "it" (a visit from the Father and the Son when Joseph Smith was fourteen) in the last half of the nineteenth century, much more frequently than some apparently claim today. Some more so than others, and Brigham Young at least a handful of times.

[JulieM]

Well, we met with the missionaries last night (this was cancelled last week because my friend didn't realize it was Easter when the appointment was set up for a week ago). My friend's first question was wondering what I'd found out regarding Brigham Young and the first vision. I had printed out much of what others on here had given me (from calmoriah and others who so graciously took the time to help me).

Let's just say that it did not go well. The missionaries just kept trying to change the subject and this really upset my friend who seemed to really want to hear about what I had to say. One of the missionaries finally just bore their testimony and told my friend that she needed to have faith, read the Book of Mormon and pray about it and not worry about this topic. I do hope that she'll do this, but she didn't like it that the missionaries seemed to want to just brush aside her question and concerns about this.

Then she started asking about Joseph Smith's polygamy and even knows about the polyandry (the missionares had no idea what that even was). These guys are so sweet, but so young and so unfamiliar with real church history. Why are they not taught about this? I'm sure these questions are being asked more and more to the missionaries in the field. I actually felt sorry for these two as I know they are sincere and wanted to teach my friend.

I haven't spoken to my friend today but she was vague last night about setting another appointment. I don't want this to affect our friendship so I won't pressure her. Either she wants to know more or she doesn't I guess. I'm actually pretty discouraged today.

[Calm]

Sorry to hear that. Feel free to have your friend write FairMormon and we will try and answer her questions about history at least.

http://www.fairmormon.org/contact

From what I've heard and seen (such as the new Gospel Topics versions and reports on seminary) future missionaries should be better prepared, but that doesn't really help right now.

Edited April 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[SamIam]

I am sitting in on some missionary discussions with a friend who is investigating the church and they taught about the first vision today, She said that her father (who is not thrilled that she is meeting with us) told her to ask why Brigham Young never mentioned Joseph Smith's first vision if it really happened and was important. I've never heard this claim before and need help gathering Brigham Young quotes as I'm certain he talked about and taught the first vision account.

Can someone point me in the right direction to find these quotes or type any here that they know of for me with sources? Thanks for any help as I've told the missionaries I'd come with those to our next appointment.

 

My thoughts trend a bit differently about this circumstance.  This is simply the first experience, of potentially many, your friend will have as the adversary does what ever he can to dissuade coming unto Christ. I don't know your friend but the issue is not proving to them the claims of the dissenters are false because you can find evidence to counter the arguments.  Proof and Evidence always fail at some point.  The answer is faith which leads to conversion.  Do all you can to encourage your friend to come unto Christ and have a genuine conversion experience.  With this type of preparation faith is fostered and they can handle better future onslaughts.  If they become indoctrinated to a position of having to prove everything it is a difficult trek and endless, constant battle of proving to yourself the gospel is true whereas conversion addresses this battle so much better.  

 

I realize this may seem a difficult task with one so new to the church, but his sheep do hear his voice.  If you see that in your friend then your faith is paramount as well. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by SamIam

[cinepro]

Well, we met with the missionaries last night (this was cancelled last week because my friend didn't realize it was Easter when the appointment was set up for a week ago). My friend's first question was wondering what I'd found out regarding Brigham Young and the first vision. I had printed out much of what others on here had given me (from calmoriah and others who so graciously took the time to help me).

Let's just say that it did not go well. The missionaries just kept trying to change the subject and this really upset my friend who seemed to really want to hear about what I had to say. One of the missionaries finally just bore their testimony and told my friend that she needed to have faith, read the Book of Mormon and pray about it and not worry about this topic. I do hope that she'll do this, but she didn't like it that the missionaries seemed to want to just brush aside her question and concerns about this.

Then she started asking about Joseph Smith's polygamy and even knows about the polyandry (the missionares had no idea what that even was). These guys are so sweet, but so young and so unfamiliar with real church history. Why are they not taught about this? I'm sure these questions are being asked more and more to the missionaries in the field. I actually felt sorry for these two as I know they are sincere and wanted to teach my friend.

I haven't spoken to my friend today but she was vague last night about setting another appointment. I don't want this to affect our friendship so I won't pressure her. Either she wants to know more or she doesn't I guess. I'm actually pretty discouraged today.

 

I am honestly befuddled that this issue would be a stumbling block.  Does your friend actually believe the First Vision happened, but can't get over that Brigham Young didn't talk about it as much? 

 

I would just tell your friend that while the First Vision is great and all, the Church wouldn't be any different today if it hadn't happened.  We'd still have the Book of Mormon and the Priesthood, and with the exception of the Hymn book having one or two fewer hymns and the Pearl of Great Price being a little less great, it just really isn't that important in the overall scheme of things.  Everything that Joseph Smith "learned" about God and Jesus in the FV is taught elsewhere in the scriptures.

 

Ultimately, it was a personal experience that happened to Joseph Smith, and it was only one such experience among many. 

 

That being said, I guess the missionaries might paint themselves into a corner on the issue if it's over-emphasized in the lesson plan.  It's tough to tell an investigator that the First Vision is a huge deal, and then do an about face when they find out it wasn't a huge deal in the 1800's.  But there's nothing you can do about that...