Quotes Of Brigham Young Needed That Talk About The First Vision

[JulieM]

I am sitting in on some missionary discussions with a friend who is investigating the church and they taught about the first vision today, She said that her father (who is not thrilled that she is meeting with us) told her to ask why Brigham Young never mentioned Joseph Smith's first vision if it really happened and was important. I've never heard this claim before and need help gathering Brigham Young quotes as I'm certain he talked about and taught the first vision account.

Can someone point me in the right direction to find these quotes or type any here that they know of for me with sources? Thanks for any help as I've told the missionaries I'd come with those to our next appointment.

[Calm]

This is becoming enough of an anti-mormon popular claim that it has found a place in FM Answers wiki:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision/Accounts/Brigham_Young_never_mentioned_the_First_Vision

I am thinking the 's is preventing the entire url from being processed as a link. You need to copy and paste it into the address line, sorry.

Edited April 14, 2014 by calmoriah

[JulieM]

Thanks calmoriah, I appreciate the link and I'll take a look!

[Doug the Hutt]

JulieM,

 

I dug through the topics Calimoriah posted and found this link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision/Accounts/Brigham_Young_never_mentioned_the_First_Vision

[Calm]

JulieM,

 

I dug through the topics Calimoriah posted and found this link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision/Accounts/Brigham_Young_never_mentioned_the_First_Vision

How did you post that? I tried to and it kept bumping out everything after the '.

[JulieM]

OK, i read through the material at that link calmoriah (thanks again) and I'm looking more for actual direct quotes by Brigham Young where he talks about the first vision account (God and Jesus appearing in the grove to Joseph Smith, etc.). The information you pointed me to is interesting but is not what I need for the missionaries. I need more than evidence that Brigham Young had to have been aware of the first vision. I'll keep searching too.

I just have to believe that with all of the many discourses we have on record by Brigham Young, he gave one on the first vision or discussed it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by JulieM

[Coreyb]

It is true that the first vision was not used as a conversion tool during the early days of the church and didn't receive much attention. According to Richard Bushman, visions like that were not uncommon among backwoods visionaries in new england. It seems to me as I read biographies of the early saints that they were far more intrigued by the new record of scripture, the restoration of a new testament style church, and the promised charismatic gifts of the spirit. John Turner believes it was the gift of tongues that impressed Brigham to convert to mormonism. I believe the practice of using the first vision as a missionary tool did not start until the 20th century.

[Duncan]

I know that Brigham made mention mention of what we know to be the visit of Moroni. Also of note is the following, 

 

"In the autumn of 1816, when about nine years old, Lorenzo[Young, Brigham's brother] had a peculiar dream which he has told as follows:

I thought I stood in an open space of ground and saw a good, well defined road leading, at an angle of forty-five degrees, into the air as far as I could see. I heard a noise similar to that of a carriage in rapid motion, at what seemed the upper end of the road. In a moment it came into sight, drawn by a pair of beautiful white horses. The carriage and harness appeared brilliant with gold, and the horses traveled with the speed of the wind. It was manifested to me that the Savior was in the carriage, and that it was driven by His servant. It stopped near me and the Savior inquired, "Where is your Brother Brigham?" After answering His question He inquired about my other brothers, and concerning my father. His queries being answered satisfactorily, He stated that He wanted us all but especially my brother Brigham. The team then turned about and returned the way it came. So powerful was the impression made on me that I slept no more that night. The idea seized me that some great evil was about to befall us. I then saw no other interpretation to the dream. Subsequent events proved that it foreshadowed our future. It was evidently fulfilled, when my father and all of his family entered into the new and everlasting Covenant. I told my father the dream and my fears. He comforted me with the assurance that he did not think my interpretation correct."

http://young.parkinsonfamily.org/john/histories/uhq-lorenzo-d-young-bio.htm

Edited April 14, 2014 by Duncan

[cinepro]

In her book on the Reed Smoot hearings, Kathleen Flake says that it wasn't until 1905 (the 100 year anniversary of Joseph Smith's birthday) that Church leaders decided to focus on the First Vision as a cornerstone of the restoration.  One hypothesis for this is that the First Vision doesn't fit into a direct tie to Biblical prophecy, which was the focus for early LDS.

 

That being said, the concern presented in the OP strikes me as really weird.  Of all the things BY said (or didn't say) that might be concerning, I don't think this would even make the list.

[Duncan]

In her book on the Reed Smoot hearings, Kathleen Flake says that it wasn't until 1905 (the 100 year anniversary of Joseph Smith's birthday) that Church leaders decided to focus on the First Vision as a cornerstone of the restoration.  One hypothesis for this is that the First Vision doesn't fit into a direct tie to Biblical prophecy, which was the focus for early LDS.

 

That being said, the concern presented in the OP strikes me as really weird.  Of all the things BY said (or didn't say) that might be concerning, I don't think this would even make the list.

 

 

that's what I was thinking, like that's your issue? and why would Brigham Young need have ever mentioned the First Vision, seems silly to me-"the Church can't be true because Brigham Young doesn't mention in any recorded documents that I haven't found on the internet that the First Vision happened" no offense whatsoever to the OP but silly billy says I!

Edited April 14, 2014 by Duncan

[cdowis]

I am sitting in on some missionary discussions with a friend who is investigating the church and they taught about the first vision today, She said that her father (who is not thrilled that she is meeting with us) told her to ask why Brigham Young never mentioned Joseph Smith's first vision if it really happened and was important. 

 

Missionary response:

 

That's an interesting question.  Never thought about it, but I'll ask him when I see him.

 

Anyway let's get back to our discussion on.......

[JulieM]

In her book on the Reed Smoot hearings, Kathleen Flake says that it wasn't until 1905 (the 100 year anniversary of Joseph Smith's birthday) that Church leaders decided to focus on the First Vision as a cornerstone of the restoration.  One hypothesis for this is that the First Vision doesn't fit into a direct tie to Biblical prophecy, which was the focus for early LDS.

 

That being said, the concern presented in the OP strikes me as really weird.  Of all the things BY said (or didn't say) that might be concerning, I don't think this would even make the list.

I know! How random is that? I can answer most questions but I'd never even worried about that or heard it discussed. She said her dad went online and found questions that she should ask to stump the missionaries and that was the first one. I guess he's not anti-Mormon but is just anti organized religion and freaked when she told him about the meetings.

I did say that I'd heard that many early church members weren't aware of the first vision, but this upset the missionaries and they gave me a look that said, "what are you talking about?". One of them said, "Of course Joseph Smith talked often about his vision where God and Jesus appeared to him and so did Brigham Young."

Thanks for all of the posts and help. I was hoping for more, but I do understand what all of you are saying about how it was in the early days of the church and how things evolved. Now I'm almost more worried about how the missionaries will react to finding no quotes than my friend. I doubt she even gets much of this and is just repeating what her father told her to ask.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Calm]

It seems to me that it is the same strange line of reasoning that goes if President Monson does not testify in an expected way, it means that he doesn't really believe it. Allegedly BY didn't like to use the First Vision story because he knew it was a fraud, etc.

I've asked FM members if they know of any more accounts, but if Nevo isn't aware of them then it is unlikely.

Edited April 14, 2014 by calmoriah

[ALarson]

I vaguely remember hearing this at one time, but never pursued looking it up.  I think the issue is (for some) that they compare Brigham Young not talking about the first vision to what it would mean if Pres. Monson didn't talk about it today.  

 

First of all, just because there is nothing recorded, that doesn't mean he never mentioned it.  And next, only Brigham Young knows why he chose not to include it in his recorded speeches.  Maybe it's similar to why apostles today don't openly talk about some of their most sacred experiences for all to hear.  Or maybe Brigham's testimony was based on other events, on the Book of Mormon or so on.  There are many possible reasons.  What we do know is that he knew about it and he had a strong testimony that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.

[Calm]

Julie, I sent to you a ton of stuff in a PM that I haven't had time to look through myself yet.  Hope it helps, let me know if it doesn't or if it is confusingly formatted.

[rongo]

Julie:

 

Here are a couple of good ones from Brigham Young out of Journal of Discourses. There are many more where he obliquely refers to the First Vision (e.g., "Joseph Smith in his youth had revelations from God," "From the day that Joseph obtained the plates, and previous to that time, the Lord dictated him."), but these blow up the claim that Brigham Young never referred to it.

 

(8:122) "Revival after revival and seceder after seceder follow in the footsteps of the reformer. He professes to teach purer and holier doctrine than has been taught; and the question arises, who is under obligation to obey that man's mandate? The Lord has not called him; Jesus has not appeared to him; Peter, James, and John have not met with him and conferred upon him the keys of the holy Priesthood; he has no communication with the heavens, only through the spirit of conviction. Such is the situation of the Christian world."  (Young compares systematically the experience and background of reformers with Joseph Smith's restoration experience, including what cannot be dismissed as the First Vision).

 

(8:354) "The Lord chose Joseph Smith, called upon him at fourteen years of age, gave him visions, and led him along, guided and directed him in his obscurity until he brought forth the plates and translated them"

 

(9:366) "Joseph Smith testified that he had received revelations from God, that holy angels had administered to him, that he had seen the heavens opened, had seen Jesus Christ and knew that he lived"

 

(12:67) " When the Lord called upon Joseph he was but a boy—a child, only about fourteen years of age. He was not filled with traditions; his mind was not made up to this, that, or the other. I very well recollect the reformation which took place in the country among the various denominations of Christians—the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and others—when Joseph was a boy. Joseph's mother, one of his brothers, and one, if not two, of his sisters were members of the Presbyterian Church, and on this account the Presbyterians hung to the family with great tenacity. And in the midst of these revivals among the religious bodies, the invitation, "Come and join our church," was often extended to Joseph, but more particularly from the Presbyterians. Joseph was naturally inclined to be religious, and being young, and surrounded with this excitement, no wonder that he became seriously impressed with the necessity of serving the Lord. But as the cry on every hand was, "Lo, here, is Christ," and "Lo, there!" Said he, "Lord, teach me, that I may know for myself, who among these are right." And what was the answer? "They are all out of the way; they have gone astray, and there is none that doeth good, no not one." When he found out that none were right, he began to inquire of the Lord what was right . . ."  (This one is interesting because Young claims to be personally familiar with the religious excitements that caused and drove the First Vision. He plainly refers to it in language paralleling the official version written in 1838).

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Calm]

I am so disillusioned, Nevo.  I may have to go to bed for a week just to recover.  

[rongo]

 

 

 

 I didn't even look to see if BY ever mentioned the First Vision before I responded to Julie's post . . .

There are actually many more Brigham Young references, but they are vague, like I said. The really good First Vision quotes from the Journal of Discourses era (1851-1886) are from Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and George A. Smith.

 

But, it's clearly false that Brigham Young never referred to or discussed it.

[JulieM]

I really appreciate all of the responses and help. I feel that even though I do not have an exact quote by Brigham Young where he specifically mentions the first vision, what I have is great. Who even knows if they called it the first vision back then. Does anyone know when that terminology began for Joseph's vision? Anyway, that is one question I have.

calmoriah, thank you for all that you sent! I'll read through it and I'm sure I can use it to explain things to my friend. I am also going to tell her that it's not real cool to try to stump the missionaries with questions like this one and that she needs to just listen to them and learn about the gospel and the church. Of course she can ask questions, but I don't like the intent of asking questions like this. I think she'll understand what I'm trying to say and I'll do it in a nice way.

I'll let you know how it goes! We aren't meeting again with the missionaries until this next Sunday.

[Calm]

Be sure and tell her about FairMormon if she has questions.  We take them from everybody.

[cinepro]

Here's the quote from Kathleen Flake.  For reference, Brigham Young died in 1877:

 

 

 

Many factors contributed to the relative lack of interest in the First Vision by believers and nonbelievers.  Most have been identified by Latter-day Saint scholars in a variety of articles attempting to validate the historicity of the event or its relationship to developments in Latter-day Saint doctrine.  Though these studies disagree on the theological implications of the First Vision, what matter for our purposes is that all agree, in the words of James Allen, author of the most extensive study, that "the weight of evidence would suggest that it [the First Vision] was not a matter of common knowledge, even among church members, in the earliest years of Mormon History."  Allen further concludes that this oversight continued until 1883 when the First Vision was first employed to teach the Latter-day Saint doctrine of deity.  Even here, however, Allen can only characterize the 1883 sermon as having "implied" that a major purpose of the vision was to "restore a true knowledge of God."  While appreciation for Smith's First Vision continued to grow in the last decade of the nineteenth century, not until the early twentieth century did it move to the fore of Latter-day Saint self-representation.  As Allen's research makes apparent, the turning point in the status of the First Vision occurred during the administration of Joseph F. Smith and was contemporaneous with the Smoot hearing and its immediate aftermath.  The story was first used in Sunday school texts in 1905, in priesthood instructional manuals in 1909, as a separate missionary tract in 1910, and in histories of the church in 1912.  Moreover, the Smith family farm in Palmyra, New York, was purchased by church members in 1907 and passed into church ownership in 1916.  A grove of trees on the site where the young prophet is assumed to have received his First Vision became an increasingly popular pilgrimage site culminating in centennial celebrations in 1920.  By midcentury, Smith's account of his theophany was denominated "The Joseph Smith Story."  Eventually it would be granted the status of "the beginning point, the fountainhead, of the restoration of the gospel in this dispensation."  In the First Vision, Joseph F. Smith had found a marker of Latter-day Saint identity whose pedigree was as great as - would be made greater than - that of plural marriage for the twentieth-century Latter-day Saints.

 

Politics of American Religious Identity: The Seating of Senator Reed Smoot, Kathleen Flake, Page 118

 

Google Books

Edited April 15, 2014 by cinepro

[JulieM]

Be sure and tell her about FairMormon if she has questions.  We take them from everybody.

I will definitely tell her about FairMormon. Thanks again for all of your help, calmoriah. You are very kind and extremely generous with your time to help people on here find answers to their questions. We're lucky to have you!

[JulieM]

cinepro, thank you for finding and posting that quote. I found it to be very informative and interesting. It explains a lot regarding how the first vision was regarded and how its importance evolved. I love reading writings like that!

Thanks again.