Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Let me just say that I understand how you CURRENTLY feel about the Church. In your position, I'd be even more upset. In fact, I was just as upset after joining the Church and they had only "lied" to me for about six months. I would have been livid if I had been lied to my entire life. The thing is that I wasn't lied to; and likely, neither were you.I'd be willing to bet my left arm (I'm right-handed) that your bishops, YM leaders and parents truly believe what they taught you. They never once got up in the morning and thought, "Time to tell Truth 101 some more lies." They taught you the "truth" as they know and as was taught to them. And this goes all the way up the line to those "evil white men" at the top. Pres. Monson is teaching the "truth" (as he believes it to be). In short, there are no villains in the Church attempting to brainwash people because, at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG.And, as for the "truthiness" of the Church, you've learned at a much earlier age than most that reality is A LOT more complicated than the narratives we create to explain it. I agree that the Church is not wholly (or holy) good. To paraphrase my favorite apostle from a talk last October, "Mistakes have been made." Likewise, neither is the Church wholly evil. I'd be willing to bet my appendix (and gall bladder) that the very best people you know are Mormons. Your indignation about some of our past mistakes demonstrates clearly that you were raised by kind and loving parents who taught you the values of justice and compassion. Think about your childhood leaders. Are these men who cheated on their wives, beat their children and cheated on their taxes? Well, two out of three ain't bad.Seriously, try to cut the people in the Church a little slack. At worst, "They know not what they do." Besides, the Church that produced YOU can't be all bad, can it?Now, let's get back to accusing everyone of being racist and sexist! Dude, I'm aware the world doesn't revolve around me and everybody lied to me on purpose. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point, at least religions that believe there is a sentient entity that created us and we're the bees knees of the universe when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos. The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. But then there is also the fact that I was in a constant state of guilt for ridiculous things that nobody should feel guilty for, and my ward just picked at each other with gossip like vultures picking at a dead body. "at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG." I can agree with that. Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Dude, I'm aware the world doesn't revolve around me and everybody lied to me on purpose. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point, at least religions that believe there is a sentient entity that created us and we're the bees knees of the universe when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos. The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. But then there is also the fact that I was in a constant state of guilt for ridiculous things that nobody should feel guilty for, and my ward just picked at each other with gossip like vultures picking at a dead body. "at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG." I can agree with that. Thank you for a post that at least gave me a tiny paradigm shift.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 woops double post meant to click edit not quote, sorry bout that.
webbles Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Dude, I'm aware the world doesn't revolve around me and everybody lied to me on purpose. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point, at least religions that believe there is a sentient entity that created us and we're the bees knees of the universe when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos. The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. But then there is also the fact that I was in a constant state of guilt for ridiculous things that nobody should feel guilty for, and my ward just picked at each other with gossip like vultures picking at a dead body. "at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG." I can agree with that. Well, from a secular point of view, that question is easy. We evolved to believe that. The genes that we are born with cause us to accept certain beliefs instead of other beliefs and we don't have much choice in that matter. So those that believe in the LDS church are just following what their genes tell them. Those that don't believe are also following what their genes tell them. In the end, it comes down to which is more evolutionary fit. If belief in the LDS church is more evolutionary fit, it will thrive and continue to grow. If it isn't evolutionary fit, it will die. Considering that it seems to cause individuals to have more children (which is one of the strongest indicators of evolutionary fitness), it appears to be more evolutionary fit than other beliefs that are causing a decrease in childbirth. 1
pogi Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) I mean I myself am white, but I believe in infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point... So you believe in, appreciate, and respect infinite diversity, but only as far as the color of one's skin goes? Why is it so perplexing and disheartening to have diversity of belief as vast as the races? Do you really expect us all to believe the same way you do, given the diversity of experience that each of us have? The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. Out of all the gems in Mormonism that made you who you are, that's all that you could come up with? Edited March 30, 2014 by pogi
thesometimesaint Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Dude, I'm aware the world doesn't revolve around me and everybody lied to me on purpose. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point, at least religions that believe there is a sentient entity that created us and we're the bees knees of the universe when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos. The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. But then there is also the fact that I was in a constant state of guilt for ridiculous things that nobody should feel guilty for, and my ward just picked at each other with gossip like vultures picking at a dead body. "at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG." I can agree with that. I'm a convert. Became a member at age 20. I think we are special to the Cosmos. We are the part of the Cosmos trying to understand itself.,
Coreyb Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Dude, I'm aware the world doesn't revolve around me and everybody lied to me on purpose. I just honestly find it perplexing that people believe in the LDS faith, or really any religion at all at this point, at least religions that believe there is a sentient entity that created us and we're the bees knees of the universe when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos. The church that produced me.... hmmm.... good point. There are good things about growing up mormon, I knew all my neighbors, stuff like that. But then there is also the fact that I was in a constant state of guilt for ridiculous things that nobody should feel guilty for, and my ward just picked at each other with gossip like vultures picking at a dead body. "at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG." I can agree with that.So... ..do you make these rants on other religious message boards, or just Mormons? I kid
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Let me just say that I understand how you CURRENTLY feel about the Church. In your position, I'd be even more upset. In fact, I was just as upset after joining the Church and they had only "lied" to me for about six months. I would have been livid if I had been lied to my entire life. The thing is that I wasn't lied to; and likely, neither were you.I'd be willing to bet my left arm (I'm right-handed) that your bishops, YM leaders and parents truly believe what they taught you. They never once got up in the morning and thought, "Time to tell Truth 101 some more lies." They taught you the "truth" as they know and as was taught to them. And this goes all the way up the line to those "evil white men" at the top. Pres. Monson is teaching the "truth" (as he believes it to be). In short, there are no villains in the Church attempting to brainwash people because, at worst, they are sincere people who are just sincerely WRONG.And, as for the "truthiness" of the Church, you've learned at a much earlier age than most that reality is A LOT more complicated than the narratives we create to explain it. I agree that the Church is not wholly (or holy) good. To paraphrase my favorite apostle from a talk last October, "Mistakes have been made." Likewise, neither is the Church wholly evil. I'd be willing to bet my appendix (and gall bladder) that the very best people you know are Mormons. Your indignation about some of our past mistakes demonstrates clearly that you were raised by kind and loving parents who taught you the values of justice and compassion. Think about your childhood leaders. Are these men who cheated on their wives, beat their children and cheated on their taxes? Well, two out of three ain't bad.Seriously, try to cut the people in the Church a little slack. At worst, "They know not what they do." Besides, the Church that produced YOU can't be all bad, can it?Now, let's get back to accusing everyone of being racist and sexist! Agreed completely.My opinion of you just changed 180 degrees. 2
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 ....when in reality we are nothing special in the eyes of the cosmos.Glad to know that you are religious after all. You believe things for which there is no evidence. Also interesting that the cosmos has "eyes" and can make value judgements. Sounds a lot like God to me- a different one than I believe in, but a God nevertheless.
MiserereNobis Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 I'm a convert. Became a member at age 20. I think we are special to the Cosmos. We are the part of the Cosmos trying to understand itself., Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... 1
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Well, from a secular point of view, that question is easy. We evolved to believe that. The genes that we are born with cause us to accept certain beliefs instead of other beliefs and we don't have much choice in that matter. So those that believe in the LDS church are just following what their genes tell them. Those that don't believe are also following what their genes tell them. In the end, it comes down to which is more evolutionary fit. If belief in the LDS church is more evolutionary fit, it will thrive and continue to grow. If it isn't evolutionary fit, it will die. Considering that it seems to cause individuals to have more children (which is one of the strongest indicators of evolutionary fitness), it appears to be more evolutionary fit than other beliefs that are causing a decrease in childbirth.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Glad to know that you are religious after all. You believe things for which there is no evidence. Also interesting that the cosmos has "eyes" and can make value judgements. Sounds a lot like God to me- a different one than I believe in, but a God nevertheless.Wow. Uh ok. Well first of all by "eyes of the cosmos" I wasn't talking about actual eyes. It was a figure of speech indicating how vast the universe is. Got it? Ok good. (I can tell english is not your first language, not an insult, just an observation) And either way I somewhat agree with what the dude above me said about the universe trying to understand itself. All is one and one is all. The god you believe in is a singular entity (unless you want to get technical with the trinity). The higher power(s) I believe in is not, at least not all the time. Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101
mormonnewb Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 Agreed completely.My opinion of you just changed 180 degrees.The day is still young, my new friend
mfbukowski Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Wow. Uh ok. Well first of all by "eyes of the cosmos" I wasn't talking about actual eyes. It was a figure of speech indicating how vast the universe is. Got it? Ok good. (I can tell english is not your first language, not an insult, just an observation) And either way I somewhat agree with what the dude above me said about the universe trying to understand itself. All is one and one is all. The god you believe in is a singular entity (unless you want to get technical with the trinity). The higher power(s) I believe in is not, at least not all the time.You have no clue what I believe. THIS is the part I was talking about:...when in reality we are nothing special... You are most special. If it wasn't for you, your "cosmos" would not exist. Your entire universe is between your ears, and you have created it in your image. You are the god of your world. 4
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... Me? Old white guy with a big mouth, but a bigger heart.
Stone holm Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Which reasoning I find strange in at least one sense given that we are told to desire all worthy things and to embrace growth and progression and for the most part willingly do so save for this one thing. I have a feeling that if most women realized the implications of saying that, they would be changing how they approached the idea (not saying they would want ordination). There are other reasons I don't feel the current need to be ordain, but not wanting more responsibility to serve God's family and my own isn't one of them. Men can do their work with or without the added benefit of having the Priesthood to allow them to serve in the best way that they can, the Priesthood expands their capacity to serve more than it "adds responsibility" imo. After all, one has important responsibilities as a father and member of the communities they are a part of even without the Priesthood. Is father with the Priesthood an added responsibility to fatherhood without? The Church teaches they can be better fathers and contributors with the Priesthood rather than without. Why would women willingly not embrace something that would expand their capacities to fulfill responsibilities they already have? If that was the only reason for not having it, I'd be demanding it as well to help make me a better servant.Although I am not convinced that The Lord will resolve the issues at play by conferring the MP on women, I find the argument that says women don't want it disturbing, given the fact there is so much psychological pressure which is adverse to a faithful woman even thinking in terms of making such a request. As a result the surveys can't possibly be seen as credible.
pogi Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Although I am not convinced that The Lord will resolve the issues at play by conferring the MP on women, I find the argument that says women don't want it disturbing, given the fact there is so much psychological pressure which is adverse to a faithful woman even thinking in terms of making such a request. As a result the surveys can't possibly be seen as credible. In light of the following passage, it doesn't seem so disturbing to me. Hebrews 5:4: “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” 1
Stone holm Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 In light of the following passage, it doesn't seem so disturbing to me. Hebrews 5:4: “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”Exactly, very good citation to prove my point. Given Scriptures like this, it would be absolutely predictable that suppressing the mere thought would be a foregone conclusion, which is why such studies are just not credible as proving anything...which is why I find the Church even referencing something so lacking in credibility disturbing.
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted March 31, 2014 Popular Post Posted March 31, 2014 Although I am not convinced that The Lord will resolve the issues at play by conferring the MP on women, I find the argument that says women don't want it disturbing, given the fact there is so much psychological pressure which is adverse to a faithful woman even thinking in terms of making such a request. As a result the surveys can't possibly be seen as credible.Yeah those poor stupid women don't even know what's good for them. They lie on the surveys because they live in fear of their abusive husbands. Good thing you are here to tell them what's good for them 5
Tacenda Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah those poor stupid women don't even know what's good for them. They lie on the surveys because they live in fear of their abusive husbands.Good thing you are here to tell them what's good for themStoneholm made a good point. Women are taught one way, and when it is ingrained then it would stand to reason the vote would be siding with that belief. The idea that the belief could be altered would open it up to change. Still unsure what my vote is, but do like the idea that the leaders take it seriously and to the Lord if they have not done so.
pogi Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Exactly, very good citation to prove my point. Given Scriptures like this, it would be absolutely predictable that suppressing the mere thought would be a foregone conclusion, which is why such studies are just not credible as proving anything...which is why I find the Church even referencing something so lacking in credibility disturbing. I don't know what studies specifically you are referring to, but I am willing to bet my left hand that the participants were granted anonymity. This makes the results more reliable than perhaps you are giving credit for.
wenglund Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah those poor stupid women don't even know what's good for them. They lie on the surveys because they live in fear of their abusive husbands. Good thing you are here to tell them what's good for them It astounds me the remarkably low opinion that liberal leaders tend to have of the minorities for whom they portend to advocate. Even more astounding is how many of the minorities unwittingly buy into the low opinion. It is not coincidental that the term "useful idiot" was initially coined by socialists. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 2
Stone holm Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah those poor stupid women don't even know what's good for them. They lie on the surveys because they live in fear of their abusive husbands. Good thing you are here to tell them what's good for them Has very little to do with lying. It does have a lot to do with credibility. I don't know what studies specifically you are referring to, but I am willing to bet my left hand that the participants were granted anonymity. This makes the results more reliable than perhaps you are giving credit for. Anonymity has nothing to do with it. I don't think LDS women are closeted Priesthood covetors. And I am not sure that the MP is the way this going to be resolved, but human nature strongly suggests that the polls which the Church refers to in its response, are just not credible on this issue.
mormonnewb Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 It astounds me the remarkably low opinion that liberal leaders tend to have of the minorities for whom they portend to advocate. Even more astounding is how many of the minorities unwittingly buy into the low opinion. It is not coincidental that the term "useful idiot" was initially coined by socialists. Thanks, -Wade Englund- Oh, Wade. Really? I am going to type this really slowly so that you will understand the situation. We liberals don't have such a low opinion of women that we want to foist the priesthood upon them "for their own good." We are simply advocating for the women who DO want the priesthood. The vast majority of women who don't want it, should be free to continue serving in the Church in their current capacities. However, with regard those you might regard as "useful idiots," their opinions matter to us and we believe that this Church could only be improved by adding their service in the priesthood to our own. (Keep reading slowly) Do you now see why that is NOT demeaning to women? What is demeaning is your presumption that the minority of women who do want the priesthood are "pawns of the proletariat" struggle, "useful idiots" who don't know that their agitation for the priesthood is actually a plot by liberal men to further oppress them. (Resume reading at normal speed) 1
Stone holm Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 It astounds me the remarkably low opinion that liberal leaders tend to have of the minorities for whom they portend to advocate. Even more astounding is how many of the minorities unwittingly buy into the low opinion. It is not coincidental that the term "useful idiot" was initially coined by socialists. Thanks, -Wade Englund-I don't have a a low opinion of the majority of the faithful members of the Church, it really is wrong to refer to women as a minority in the Church. But I have heard this argument before which really does not address what was said. It's just more convenient to roll out the L word instead.
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