Is The Church Being Completely Honest?

[rockpond]

You accusation of Joseph Smith sending men on missions and marrying their wives is incorrect. You'll also find great knowledge about the Pearl of Great Price from the Book of Abraham Project as that's the aspect which seems to trouble you. Also, much of what the Book of Mormon says archeologically fits to much of Meso-american history. Finally, but not least, open yourself up to the Holy Spirit.

Polygamy: http://bmaf.org; http://bmaf.org/about/why_mesoamerica; http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-cultural-context-of-nephite-apostasy/

Follow the Holy Spirit: no internet link in the world can help you here. Though, even better than digital information, you were born with the best, most direct link here and is embedded in your very soul. Use it to communicate it with the Most High Father who created it.

No offense, Darren, but as well intentioned as your post here is... It's this kind of response that pushed me away from the church when I came across some of these issues. And I was an active, recommend-holding, seminary teacher at the time. I was praying intensely, studying the scriptures for hours each day, and having amazingly spiritual experiences with my students. But none of that was enough to overcome the betrayal I felt.

[rockpond]

the church just provided an essay stating the litteralness of the worldwide flood of noah. do you think the leaders of the church actually believe in a world wide flood?

https://www.lds.org/topics/noah?lang=eng

What in that article do you interpret to be stating that there was a literal flood?

It says that God uses symbols to teach gospel truths.

[Darren10]

"You accusation of Joseph Smith sending men on missions and marrying their wives is incorrect."

 

Are you denying that Joseph sent men on missions and then married their wives?  I think I'll have recheck my knowledge of the history if that is true, but I think he did.

 

Yes, I am denying it. I even provided a link to Truth as a bases for my claim.

[Darren10]

Rockpond;
 

No offense, Darren, but as well intentioned as your post here is... It's this kind of response that pushed me away from the church when I came across some of these issues. And I was an active, recommend-holding, seminary teacher at the time. I was praying intensely, studying the scriptures for hours each day, and having amazingly spiritual experiences with my students. But none of that was enough to overcome the betrayal I felt.

Stay strong, brother.

 

PS: Seems you had more than you needed to overcome the "betrayal".

Edited March 22, 2014 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Anteojito;
 

Or you could say it this way:



"Joseph Smith sent men on missions and then married their wives."

Based off of what?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Omni;

 

For years I wouldn't tell anyone that I lurked on this board or that I was even interested in apologetics because I knew (through past experiences) what their reaction would be.

What's interesting here is that I tell everyone about where I go for LDS information and do so as Gospel Doctrine teacher meaning in class and in that official capacity.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Darren10

[Duncan]

Based of the fact that Joseph Smith sent men on missions (Orson Hyde) and then married his wife Marinda Hyde.

 

 

of which Orson didn't have a problem with, read his bio by Myrtle Hyde Stevens

[cinepro]

What in that article do you interpret to be stating that there was a literal flood?

It says that God uses symbols to teach gospel truths.

 

Well, this is pretty clear:

 

When the people rejected his message, God commanded Noah to build an ark, gather animals, and prepare for a flood. Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives were the only people on the whole earth saved from the flood.

 

Do explain how you understand "whole earth" to be compatible with a local or allegorical interpretation...?

 

As far as the symbolism goes, it's the flood that is an actual symbol of baptism.  A local flood would be an epic fail as far as symbols go.

 

Just as the earth was immersed in water, so we must be baptized by water and by the Spirit before we can enter the celestial kingdom. Also, Noah himself was a symbol of Christ. It was necessary for any living creature who wished to be saved to come “unto Noah into the ark” (Genesis 7:9, 15).

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Anteojito]

of which Orson didn't have a problem with, read his bio by Myrtle Hyde Stevens

Doesn't change the fact that it happened and it happened without his knowledge.

[Paddy]

Doesn't change the fact that it happened and it happened without his knowledge.

It's interesting that people demand truth but then reject the nuance with it.

[rockpond]

Well, this is pretty clear:

Do explain how you understand "whole earth" to be compatible with a local or allegorical interpretation...?

As far as the symbolism goes, it's the flood that is an actual symbol of baptism. A local flood would be an epic fail as far as symbols go.

The LDS.org article recounts the Biblical story as I would expect.

The earth didn't need to be completely covered with water to be symbolically baptized (we symbolically annoint in the temple now... sorry not gonna provide the details if you aren't already aware).

So, no, I still don't see anything in that article that requires or states a literal belief in a global flood.

But I will also admit that I might be biased since, as a scientist, I cannot believe in a literal flood. So I look for ways to maintain my faith.

[omni]

But I will also admit that I might be biased since, as a scientist, I cannot believe in a literal flood. So I look for ways to maintain my faith.

 

I was once there and know exactly how you feel.

[Coreyb]

Mark Ashurst-McGee believes that Joseph used both a white stone (discovered in Willard Chase's well) and a brown stone (discovered in a buried kettle) in translating the plates.

 

Here's an excerpt from Ashurst-McGee's MA thesis:

I sit corrected. Thanks

[Scott Lloyd]

No offense, Darren, but as well intentioned as your post here is... It's this kind of response that pushed me away from the church when I came across some of these issues. And I was an active, recommend-holding, seminary teacher at the time. I was praying intensely, studying the scriptures for hours each day, and having amazingly spiritual experiences with my students. But none of that was enough to overcome the betrayal I felt.

No offense, rockpond, but the fact you were repelled by Darren's kind of response doesn't mean everyone would be.

In the final analysis, he spoke the truth. In evaluating Church teachings, any perspective that lacks a spiritual influence will ultimately be inadequate.

There are people who have remained relatively unfazed when coming across these troubling or unresolved questions. Others have recovered a sense of peace and contentment regarding the Church after a season of doubting, even as some of their questioning remains unresolved. I daresay that for a good many, if not for all, of these folks, their serenity is attributable to the influence of the Spirit.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[cdowis]

There are those who are very troubled by some of the strange things that happen in quantum physics == almost supernatural, such as entangled electron pairs.  But they have not felt betrayed, and did not abandoned science over something that is inexplicable, and even weird.  

 

And you threw away your salvation over some rocks that are able to translate, even after having a testimony of the gospel.  

How tragic.

Edited March 22, 2014 by cdowis

[Darren10]

Anteojito;

Doesn't change the fact that it happened and it happened without his knowledge.

But that *does* change your accusation that Joseph Smith sent "men" on missions and married their "wives'. Both yours, sanpitch's and Truth's accusational connotation that Joseph Smith was a man deceitful and lustful via his sending "men" on missions and getting married to their "wives" during their absence. Furthermore, Brian Hale's outstanding work on Joseph Smith's polygamy concludes that he had no sexual relation with any women married to another man.

[BCSpace]

You can blame the disaffected members, or you can blame the critics, or you can look at the data that shows our rate of growth as a church is decreasing... and decide that maybe something does need to change.  Your choice.

 

 

 

But how much of that is because of the Church supposedly not being forth coming with it's history?  All Christianity seems to be in the same decline.  I'd say rather it's because of the cares of the world, a lack of belief in miracles, and increase in moral relativism, etc.

 

 

p.s.  Givens is not a critic nor has he given into pressure from critics... he's actively out there trying to rescue members.

 

 

I don't doubt that.  What I do believe is that the one quote in question is misguided.

Edited March 22, 2014 by BCSpace

[mormonnewb]

I think we often confuse "faith promoting" with "perfectly righteous"; at least, in recording the history of our prophets. Therefore, we tend to leave out any mention of any activity that might reflect negatively on them. Ironically, this was one of my initial stumbling blocks in accepting Joseph as a prophet because this "saint of a man" had nothing in common with any of God's other servants. I can't think of a single prophet or apostle who didnt have some serious transgression on their record, which transgression was recounted directly in scripture (and not some random issue of Bethlehem Weekly). I learned about Noah's drunkeness in the Bilble. I learned about Moses' murder in the Bible. I learned about David's adultery in the Bible. Yet, I had to learn about JS' treasure-digging and polyandry on the Internet.

Fortunately, coming to the faith later in life spared me the turmoil of feeling "betrayed," but it did make me skeptical of any claim made by Church leaders. If a GA said in GC that 8 divided by 2 was 4, I'd immediately pull out my calculator and do the math myself. It's not that I felt they were lying to me, but I couldn't trust that they wouldn't leave off a remainder or something if they didnt think it was "faith promoting." I must confess that I'm only slightly more trusting these days, but I've learned to anchor my testimony on other grounds.

The sad part is that the things we hide away on pg 43 of the Ensign could actually be faith affirming, For example, JS' use of a seer stone actually makes sense in light of his use of other mystical instruments in his treasure digging, After all, didn't HF allow Joseph to free himself from bondage in Egypt through his mystical ability to interpret dreams? Since JS was not an Egyptologist, he had to have SOME way to receive revelation to translate the plates. A seer stone makes as much sense as any method. And if it was a tool that he was familiar using, then why wouldn't HF allow JS to use his tool of choice, just as HF allowed David to use a slingshot to fell Goliath. And while depicting David using an Uzi to take out Goliath might look more "realistic," HF allowed Biblical writers to tell the story as it actually happened.

Perhaps, our manuals could follow the example of scripture, which, for me, is plenty faith promoting.

[Coreyb]

I think we often confuse "faith promoting" with "perfectly righteous"; at least, in recording the history of our prophets. Therefore, we tend to leave out any mention of any activity that might reflect negatively on them. Ironically, this was one of my initial stumbling blocks in accepting Joseph as a prophet because this "saint of a man" had nothing in common with any of God's other servants. I can't think of a single prophet or apostle who didnt have some serious transgression on their record, which transgression was recounted directly in scripture (and not some random issue of Bethlehem Weekly). I learned about Noah's drunkeness in the Bilble. I learned about Moses' murder in the Bible. I learned about David's adultery in the Bible. Yet, I had to learn about JS' treasure-digging and polyandry on the Internet.

Fortunately, coming to the faith later in life spared me the turmoil of feeling "betrayed," but it did make me skeptical of any claim made by Church leaders. If a GA said in GC that 8 divided by 2 was 4, I'd immediately pull out my calculator and do the math myself. It's not that I felt they were lying to me, but I couldn't trust that they wouldn't leave off a remainder or something if they didnt think it was "faith promoting." I must confess that I'm only slightly more trusting these days, but I've learned to anchor my testimony on other grounds.

The sad part is that the things we hide away on pg 43 of the Ensign could actually be faith affirming, For example, JS' use of a seer stone actually makes sense in light of his use of other mystical instruments in his treasure digging, After all, didn't HF allow Joseph to free himself from bondage in Egypt through his mystical ability to interpret dreams? Since JS was not an Egyptologist, he had to have SOME way to receive revelation to translate the plates. A seer stone makes as much sense as any method. And if it was a tool that he was familiar using, then why wouldn't HF allow JS to use his tool of choice, just as HF allowed David to use a slingshot to fell Goliath. And while depicting David using an Uzi to take out Goliath might look more "realistic," HF allowed Biblical writers to tell the story as it actually happened.

Perhaps, our manuals could follow the example of scripture, which, for me, is plenty faith promoting.

Reminds me of my favorite quote from a kooky old mormon who never wore clothes. "Joseph Smith was one of the wickedest men on earth! That is the very definition of a prophet: a man so wicked, the only way God could save him is to come to him personally and force him to do his work!"

[mormonnewb]

Reminds me of my favorite quote from a kooky old mormon who never wore clothes. "Joseph Smith was one of the wickedest men on earth! That is the very definition of a prophet: a man so wicked, the only way God could save him is to come to him personally and force him to do his work!"

I have a friend who says, "I never follow anyone who doesn't walk with a limp."

[Scott Lloyd]

But how much of that is because of the Church supposedly not being forth coming with it's history? All Christianity seems to be in the same decline. I'd say rather it's because of the cares of the world, a lack of belief in miracles, and increase in moral relativism, etc.

True. That, in fact, is in line with scriptural prophecy.

Nephi beheld in vision that the church of the Lamb of God in the last days would have a global presence but that its numbers would be few because of the influence of the great and abominable church or church of the devil.

This handwringing over the Church's growth supposedly slowing because it has not been forthcoming about every little thing may in fact be missing the mark.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow, you sure read a lot into my statement. What I said is pure fact.

One can state pure fact in a way that is misleading.

[Anteojito]

One can state pure fact in a way that is misleading.

What did I say that was misleading?

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't doubt that. What I do believe is that the one quote in question is misguided.

I've said it before: I don't believe in the infallibility of prophets and Church leaders. Why should I believe in it with respect to philosophers, intellectuals and professors?