A Question About The Atonement

[Hapy]

Well who (or what) is then?

Righteousness is the source of eternal law. 

[Hapy]

There are eternal powers and laws that be. God did not create evil. Nor did He create righteousness. As a man and woman use the powers given them, to procreate offspring so did the Father of our spirits use existing laws and powers to create our spirit bodies. When sin is committed there is a needs be that justice must intervene. It required the pure love of Christ to atone for the sins of man. It required an innocent being exercising yet another eternal law of sacrifice to accomplish this magnificent act. Additionally, we need not always refer to written scripture for answers. Scripture can be spoken by any righteous person. The word of God is truth. It is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. 

[MiserereNobis]

Sorry but hey we get that all the time, so frankly it doesn't bother me.

 

Sorry if it bothered you.  Remember your church teaches we worship a "different Christ", and of course they are right I suppose. 

 

But my lips are definitely not paralyzed, or sumptin like 'at. 

 

Nah, it didn't bother me.  I was just bantering with you

[jchristopher]

We will not be their God, just as Adam is not ours.

Why would Adam be our God? Is he not our brother? He's only our father in the physical sense. Adam isn't the father of our spirits, and so therefore I would never suggest that we would worship him as our God.

[jchristopher]

Actually, quite easily.

"Then shall they be gods". Note the lower case "g". It doesn't say they shall be God.

I kind of see it like joining the family business. We join the board of directors and are given responsibilities for certain areas of activity. The Father is still the CEO. He still has the majority shareholding and we will never replace him. The business expands as more join the board and activity increases. The "profits" increase but the credit (glory) still goes to the CEO. We don't get the glory - that's what Lucifer was after. We will be anonymous to the "customers" (those in mortality) but they will know about the CEO (the Father) and so will communicate (pray) to him.

I suspect this is the current arrangement. The Father we pray to is more like our great-grandfather (many times over), but is our literal Father in the same way Abraham is.

This concept creates a little bit of a conundrum. If what you're suggesting is the case, then how did God the father become "CEO?" Why wouldn't we worship his father, or his father's father? Wait, unless you are the one who doesn't believe that God the father has a father

[Alan]

This concept creates a little bit of a conundrum. If what you're suggesting is the case, then how did God the father become "CEO?" Why wouldn't we worship his father, or his father's father? Wait, unless you are the one who doesn't believe that God the father has a father

 

He has always been the CEO.

He doesn't have a father. He is THE Father.

[CV75]

Surely God is all-knowing. Therefore he has a perfect foreknowledge and would not create laws to which he binds himself as a matter of honour, knowing that he would then have to require his only begotten Son to suffer such agony in order to uphold the law he set.

Some people are calling it "cosmic child-abuse" and I can see their point.

I just wish I could get my head around this because it really bothers me.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that God is the Author of eternal law, at least as far as we are concerned at this time, and that there is no other above Him (at least as far as we are concerned).

Your question is why He would author a law that required the sacrifice of His Son.

His laws already require that all His children suffer and sacrifice through a mortal probation, and His Son is no exception. To whom much is given, much is required, which may provide some explanation as to why individuals suffer and sacrifice differently from one another, and why Christ the greatest of all, suffered more than we all (even we all combined).

Much of what we are given begins in the pre-mortal existence, so our bounds, times and habitations reflect what we come to earth with and for. Christ having been the Only Begotten from before the foundation of the world was bound to suffer and sacrifice more than any other.

Despite what we start out with from pre-mortality, the plan is that we end up united in the same place. The mechanics of the Atonement allow Christ to exercise all that He has in order to give us all that we can receive after we exercise all we have to give.

Given the aims of God’s laws, the infinite and eternal reward is certainly worth the infinite and eternal suffering and sacrifice given by Jesus (and the temporal suffering and sacrifice of the rest of His children), so “cosmic child abuse” is not how this can really be characterized.

Because of the eternal law of opposition in all things, eternal life and eternal suffering are a compound in one, which condition must transcend our conceptualization of what either of these might be.

[jchristopher]

Righteousness is the source of eternal law.

What is righteousness?

[Shizfan]

I have a basic fundamental question about the atonement, and despite reading a lot, listening a lot, and thinking a lot, I still haven't been able to satisfy myself with an answer.

 

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, almighty etc, then why did he need his son to sacrifice himself for us? Surely, just as I can forgive my children for their transgressions against me without requiring a price, he too can forgive whom he pleases in the same way.

 

I know as well as anybody (I think) the mechanics of the atonement, I just don't understand why it was really necessary. For example, God says that if we repent he will forgive us and we can enter his presence. Well, why couldn't he do that (forgive us on condition of repentence) anyway without an atonement? He is all-powerful etc so whatever he says goes.

 

The more I think about it, the less the atonement makes sense to me.

Maybe the real question is, what is Justice that demands that the son of god suffer for our sins In order for Justice to allow god to let those children who accept that atonement in his kingdom?

I believe in the Justice/Mercy system, but don't have enough knowledge to understand what "Justice" is. Good Ol Cleon Skousen in his book "The first thousand years" believed that "Justice" is the "intelligences" throughout the universe that obey supreme beings commands based on love/devotion to one who has those attributes that gods have. So those intelligences required a sacrifice for sin so that they will obey our command based on the love/devotion that they have for Jesus's atonement. This way we will have the same power that god has through Christ and his atonement. I'm not sure if this is truth but find it very interesting.

[Shizfan]

This is one of the fundamental errors in viewing the necessity of the atonement.  Sin is not simply about offending God.  Sin is about transgressing law.  And even God, as powerful and forgiving as he is cannot remove the penalty for transgressing law just by forgiving us.

 

The scriptures are clear - the wages of sin are death.  Just one sin, any sin, has a price attached.  No person with a sin upon them can enter God's presence.  And eternal law requires those under mortal sin to remain in the grave.  Not because he won't let them live, but because eternal law prevents it.  So the price attached to that sin still has to be paid.

 

The mercy comes in that by offering a sinless sacrifice to pay the price and bring about resurrection of a sinner.  God could personally forgive us in our sins but the sins would still be on our heads and the price would still have to be paid by us.  God cannot (and will not) violate the eternal law that places a punishment on a sinner.  The price has to be paid.  It's unavoidable even if God forgives us.  And praise to our Savior that he paid the irrevocable price of our sins if we accept him and that makes the Father's mercy efficacious.

Very well said, that is basically what I was trying to say, but you said it way better. Like I said its a matter of asking "what is Justice that demands a sacrifice of a god in order to allow us to live in gods presence?"

[EllenMaksoud]

I have a basic fundamental question about the atonement, and despite reading a lot, listening a lot, and thinking a lot, I still haven't been able to satisfy myself with an answer.

 

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, almighty etc, then why did he need his son to sacrifice himself for us? Surely, just as I can forgive my children for their transgressions against me without requiring a price, he too can forgive whom he pleases in the same way.

 

I know as well as anybody (I think) the mechanics of the atonement, I just don't understand why it was really necessary. For example, God says that if we repent he will forgive us and we can enter his presence. Well, why couldn't he do that (forgive us on condition of repentence) anyway without an atonement? He is all-powerful etc so whatever he says goes.

 

The more I think about it, the less the atonement makes sense to me.

I'm not actually very taken with it either.  And I think that one day it will not be practiced any more.  That there is a God, and he is all powerful is clear. I question that Jesus Christ died for our sins, but that his death and resurrection was to prove that it is possible to move from life to death and back again; to prove an after life. That God would continue to punish us for over 10,000 years is not credible to me. (As non-Mormons believe). 

 

The idea that each of us is punished for our own sin and not that of Adam, pretty much erases the original sin idea, thus making the Atonement invalid. That certain classes of people would not be able to benefit from the Atonement "in this life", was the straw that tore it for me, as in folk who can not get Temple Recommends, is one ups man ship, and exclusionary to a very cruel degree.

 

Don't bother coming after me over this. I do not care what others think.

[teddyaware]

I'm not actually very taken with it either.  And I think that one day it will not be practiced any more.  That there is a God, and he is all powerful is clear. I question that Jesus Christ died for our sins, but that his death and resurrection was to prove that it is possible to move from life to death and back again; to prove an after life. That God would continue to punish us for over 10,000 years is not credible to me. (As non-Mormons believe). 

 

The idea that each of us is punished for our own sin and not that of Adam, pretty much erases the original sin idea, thus making the Atonement invalid. That certain classes of people would not be able to benefit from the Atonement "in this life", was the straw that tore it for me, as in folk who can not get Temple Recommends, is one ups man ship, and exclusionary to a very cruel degree.

Don't bother coming after me over this. I do not care what others think.

Absolutely astonishing.

[Hapy]

What is righteousness?

 

Morally right or justifiable. Opposite of evil. 

[MiserereNobis]

I'm not actually very taken with it either.  And I think that one day it will not be practiced any more.  That there is a God, and he is all powerful is clear. I question that Jesus Christ died for our sins, but that his death and resurrection was to prove that it is possible to move from life to death and back again; to prove an after life. That God would continue to punish us for over 10,000 years is not credible to me. (As non-Mormons believe). 

 

The idea that each of us is punished for our own sin and not that of Adam, pretty much erases the original sin idea, thus making the Atonement invalid. That certain classes of people would not be able to benefit from the Atonement "in this life", was the straw that tore it for me, as in folk who can not get Temple Recommends, is one ups man ship, and exclusionary to a very cruel degree.

 

Don't bother coming after me over this. I do not care what others think.

 

I'm not going to "come after" you but I am going to say that it is pretty hard for me imagine Christianity without the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross -- the Atonement.  It's hard to imagine the Christian religion without its most basic tenet -- that Christ suffered for us.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm not going to "come after" you but I am going to say that it is pretty hard for me imagine Christianity without the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross -- the Atonement.  It's hard to imagine the Christian religion without its most basic tenet -- that Christ suffered for us.

 

I'm not going to "come after" you but I am going to say that it is pretty hard for me imagine Christianity without the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross -- the Atonement.  It's hard to imagine the Christian religion without its most basic tenet -- that Christ suffered for us.

I actually used to believe that.  But as I said before, if we are not paying for Adam's sin, then what did Christ suffer for us for? I am not going to run around trying to convert people to my thinking, however. There are some other ideas in religion that people do not agree on. One is the trinity. Jesus Christ said nothing about it, and the idea did not even surface until the 4th century.  Another one is Transubstantiation, though to be charitable, if people want to use that to help them establish a mind picture ...

 

In keeping with the ideas in Ecclesiastes,  the most important part of belief is will we do what Heavenly Father says to do? Do we love him, and will we love those around us? It is not about man made rules about bacon, or the wearing of the Hijab, or the eating of fish, or the truth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus Christ took all the mystery, ritual, and fear out of religion, and then we killed him ...  Men of Satan the deciever wanted all those rules to make belief burdensome, confusing and slavery so they could have power. However, at the end, the sheep will know their master.

[teddyaware]

I actually used to believe that.  But as I said before, if we are not paying for Adam's sin, then what did Christ suffer for us for? I am not going to run around trying to convert people to my thinking, however. There are some other ideas in religion that people do not agree on. One is the trinity. Jesus Christ said nothing about it, and the idea did not even surface until the 4th century.  Another one is Transubstantiation, though to be charitable, if people want to use that to help them establish a mind picture ...

 

In keeping with the ideas in Ecclesiastes,  the most important part of belief is will we do what Heavenly Father says to do? Do we love him, and will we love those around us? It is not about man made rules about bacon, or the wearing of the Hijab, or the eating of fish, or the truth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus Christ took all the mystery, ritual, and fear out of religion, and then we killed him ...  Men of Satan the deciever wanted all those rules to make belief burdensome, confusing and slavery so they could have power. However, at the end, the sheep will know their master.

In a spirit genuine of kindness I ask, how can one be a believing Latter-day Saint who does what Heavenly Father wants them to do, while simultaneously rejecting the very core doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? The following words of Jesus Christ, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, set forth the most basic foundational teachings the followers of Christ must faithfully believe and do:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (3 Nephi 27)

Edited March 20, 2014 by teddyaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

The atonement is the most important event that ever happened in mankind. I am so thankful for it. I'd be lost without it.

[EllenMaksoud]

In a spirit genuine of kindness I ask, how can one be a believing Latter-day Saint who does what Heavenly Father wants them to do, while simultaneously rejecting the very core doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? The following words of Jesus Christ, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, set forth the most basic foundational teachings the followers of Christ must faithfully believe and do:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (3 Nephi 27)

And you see a conflict?

 

We want our lives to be easier and happier, but in fact Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. And through out the centuries since the crucifixion it has been the sword for many. I obey the covenants. but they are simply to make our lives easier. The real value of our lives is in loving Heavenly Father, and loving one another; responding in love when others hurt us, being charitable to those in need, not just through the church but with those we encounter. It used to be that I carried $100 in my purse in $20 dollar bills, and when I saw someone in need, I would give them one or two $20's. One must try to avoid giving money for drugs or intoxicants, but after a while one can mostly pick them out. You can find a mother in a grocery store who is staring intently at her shopping list. Or, you can find a young woman on the bus or near a strip club who is about to apply for a job stripping. You can pay for someone's gas at a service station. Or find someone in the Library.

 

I remain Mormon. I am alone, with no one to care for, and no one to care for me. So, in life it may be easier to more focus my attention on Heavenly Father?  If you have 6 toddlers, or a Job that drives you crazy, or a husband who looks at porn, or have a gambling habit, perhaps it is harder to seek Heavenly Father without distraction.

 

Sometimes people who you thought were close to you show you that they have regard only for their agenda and are not mindful of how much it hurts you. It is painful when members of the church try to badger you into a form of activism that is repugnant to you. The best life perhaps is to live peacefully before a Holy God. I repent of any unkindness that I may have committed.

[pogi]

I actually used to believe that.  But as I said before, if we are not paying for Adam's sin, then what did Christ suffer for us for? 

 

Christ suffered for us so that we wouldn't have to.  Trough his suffering and death, he overcame both physical and spiritual death .  He could not have experienced spiritual death in order to overcome it without suffering for our sins.  He also suffered for us in order to know how to succor us with a perfect empathy.

 

 

And you see a conflict?

 

We want our lives to be easier and happier, but in fact Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. And through out the centuries since the crucifixion it has been the sword for many. I obey the covenants. but they are simply to make our lives easier. 

 

There is another interpretation for that scripture which I will not get into now.  Christ is the Prince of Peace, so perhaps there is more to that scripture than meets the eye.  

 

The atonement was not simply to make our lives easier or to prevent "the sword" or hardship, it was to overcome the consequences of sin, which is physical and spiritual death.  We could not overcome that on our own and would be doomed to eternal hell without a savior.

[EllenMaksoud]

Christ suffered for us so that we wouldn't have to.  Trough his suffering and death, he overcame both physical and spiritual death .  He could not have experienced spiritual death in order to overcome it without suffering for our sins.  He also suffered for us in order to know how to succor us with a perfect empathy.

 

 

 

There is another interpretation for that scripture which I will not get into now.  Christ is the Prince of Peace, so perhaps there is more to that scripture than meets the eye.  

 

The atonement was not simply to make our lives easier or to prevent "the sword" or hardship, it was to overcome the consequences of sin, which is physical and spiritual death.  We could not overcome that on our own and would be doomed to eternal hell without a savior.

Well, you can rest assured that I will not be bringing this up in Sunday School, or Relief Society.   The idea is a huge departure from conventional thinking.

 

AND, I remain faithful to my covenants.  And, I will not be revealing what caused all this unconventional thinking because I know I won't convince anyone on that either.

 

I've had some contact with both backsliden and observant Jews. I was amazed that one of the obervant Jews I knew actually yelled at and argued with G_d worse than my adolescent children did when they were young.  I have yet to encounter a Jew that has much respect for Christian thought.  I am stepping outside the box to think about God; trying to divine any deeper meaning than I see people living. This does not seem to frighten Jews, so why would it I? We are programmed and conditioned, sometimes memorizing texts that sometimes make life easier, but at times prevent deep thought.

.

The first time I questioned the Trinity, I worried for a moment that the man in church would strike me . Imagine my surprise when I encountered not one but to faiths that did also.

 

In the Articles of Faith, 1:2  We believe that men will be ^apunished for their ^bown sins, and not for ^cAdam’s transgression. So, no original sin. Colossians 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins ...

^{_{I just hate it when I prove myself wrong with my own research.}}

Edited March 20, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[teddyaware]

And you see a conflict?

 

We want our lives to be easier and happier, but in fact Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. And through out the centuries since the crucifixion it has been the sword for many. I obey the covenants. but they are simply to make our lives easier. The real value of our lives is in loving Heavenly Father, and loving one another; responding in love when others hurt us, being charitable to those in need, not just through the church but with those we encounter. It used to be that I carried $100 in my purse in $20 dollar bills, and when I saw someone in need, I would give them one or two $20's. One must try to avoid giving money for drugs or intoxicants, but after a while one can mostly pick them out. You can find a mother in a grocery store who is staring intently at her shopping list. Or, you can find a young woman on the bus or near a strip club who is about to apply for a job stripping. You can pay for someone's gas at a service station. Or find someone in the Library.

 

I remain Mormon. I am alone, with no one to care for, and no one to care for me. So, in life it may be easier to more focus my attention on Heavenly Father?  If you have 6 toddlers, or a Job that drives you crazy, or a husband who looks at porn, or have a gambling habit, perhaps it is harder to seek Heavenly Father without distraction.

 

Sometimes people who you thought were close to you show you that they have regard only for their agenda and are not mindful of how much it hurts you. It is painful when members of the church try to badger you into a form of activism that is repugnant to you. The best life perhaps is to live peacefully before a Holy God. I repent of any unkindness that I may have committed.

Perhaps I'm missing your point, so let me see if I understand your thinking: Are you saying because we will be punished for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression that an atoning sacrifice for sin was not necessary?

[EllenMaksoud]

Perhaps I'm missing your point, so let me see if I understand your thinking: Are you saying because we will be punished for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression that an atoning sacrifice for sin was not necessary?

If you will look at post 120 of this thread?  I was wrong and am sorry.  Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Edited March 20, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[mfbukowski]

In the Articles of Faith, 1:2  We believe that men will be ^apunished for their ^bown sins, and not for ^cAdam’s transgression. So, no original sin. Colossians 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins ...

^{_{I just hate it when I prove myself wrong with my own research.}}

Got it, but here's the deal.

 

None of us will ever be good enough to return to the Father's presence so Christ made up the difference.  It was all for US not for Adam.

 

Can you resurrect yourself?

[EllenMaksoud]

Got it, but here's the deal.

 

None of us will ever be good enough to return to the Father's presence so Christ made up the difference.  It was all for US not for Adam.

 

Can you resurrect yourself?

Gosh ! You are gonna hold me down until I say Uncle, huh ? 

 

God, does the resurrection procedure.  I never had any question about that. I just felt that the primary issue with Jesus Christ dying for us was to prove that the worm hole from this life to the next and back was two way.   Of course, we only need one way, but Jesus Christ used both.  I am sort of thinking about this from the point of view of Theoretical Physics and stuff.

[mfbukowski]

Gosh ! You are gonna hold me down until I say Uncle, huh ? 

 

God, does the resurrection procedure.  I never had any question about that. I just felt that the primary issue with Jesus Christ dying for us was to prove that the worm hole from this life to the next and back was two way.   Of course, we only need one way, but Jesus Christ used both.  I am sort of thinking about this from the point of view of Theoretical Physics and stuff.

Great- that works for me.   I love "theoretical physics and stuff!"

 

But honestly, I'm not holding you down- I personally don't care what you believe- we all have to make our peace with God our own ways.  I welcome you into my "home" (church) and ask you to put up your feet and relax and hang out as long as you want and pick up provisions for your journey and stay or be on your way.  It's all up to you

 

So here's a peanut butter sandwich- you can eat it here or take it with you on your trip- it's up to you!

 

You and I personally have sinned and have created negative energy by doing so.  That goes out into the universe and affects others around us with unintended consequences- like a drunk driver killing a whole family by "accident" (extreme example to show the point).

 

That evil ripples through eternity.  Those kids do not have kids that do not do what they might have done if that had not happened.  No cure for cancer, or who knows what.  And the ripples continue forever.  That negative energy is out there doing its work.

 

On a less extreme example, I am unkind to someone here on the board, they get mad and yell at a kid, or beat the dog, or ???  The dog goes and growls at someone and scares them...... and on it goes.

 

You have little evils and huge evils- WWII was a huge evil.  MILLIONS of innocents killed with no ability to do anything about it.  Horrible injustice with literally cosmic implications.

 

Who can make it right?  How can humanity, rotten folks that we tend to be, ever overcome all that negative energy?  How can anyone ever return to God with all that negativity rolling around in the universe?

 

As long as we do the best we can, Christ gives us the "positive charge" necessary to make up for the negativity we have caused.  It's still out there causing damage, but for US as individuals, if we repent and do our best and believe that He CAN do so- he gives us enough of a positive "charge" to overcome that negativity at least as far as the consequences to us are concerned. 

 

He acts as an "insulator" so that charge does not cause us personal damage.  He takes the negative charge onto himself and turns it into a positive charge.  I forget what you call an electrical thingy that does that.

 

The important point- call it "Christ" or a "positive charge" or however you want to think about it, God makes up the difference for what YOU AND I HAVE DONE.

 

So the "primary issue with Jesus Christ dying for us" is NOT resurrection- it is giving us individually the charge necessary to overcome all the personal negativity we have created, so that we can return to God, who is the personification of "positivity" in this example.

 

No Christ, no return to God, and we reap all the negativity we have created.   It's kind of like Karma.  You reap what you sow.  It's cause and effect- the most basic of physical principles.

 

Christ absorbs the bad Karma and turns it into good.

Edited March 20, 2014 by mfbukowski