Science And Scripture. Can They Coexist?

[Truth 101]

I mean hell I even think that higher forms of life such as cats, dogs, horses, dolphins, apes, elephants and other more "intelligent" animals (mammals mostly), or at least animals that run off of highly evolved forms of instinct have some sort of a soul or spirit if you will.

 

One might even say a theory could be that each of our souls started off as lower life forms and each time one dies your soul gets reincarnated into a higher more aware form of life. So when we die we may be reincarnated into a higher more aware entity. Such as a god of sorts. But again, that's just a theory.

 

One thing I refuse to believe however, or lack of belief I guess you could say, is that there is no higher form of power. In other words I don't understand atheists. I refuse to believe that there is no life after death and this life is all we have. IMO that is a pessimistic way of thinking that does nobody any good.

 

I know it is a bit of a cop out, but I consider myself agnostic. But I also at the same time consider myself to be Christian in some ways, and by that I mean that I strive to be more christ like. Whether or not Jesus Christ existed doesn't matter to me (but I think he did exist IMO), the stories are there, he was a good dude, and there is nothing wrong with trying to be good like he was. There is nobody else in history in my mind that endured to the end like he did for a good cause.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Truth 101

[jaxenro]

What theory do you ascribe to? Traditional evolutionary theory?

 

If you are really trying to square science with religion then I think we should leave out alien intervention. Unless you can point to credentialed peer reviewed science that supports such theories

[Gray]

Yes, but I think only if you read scripture as it was intended to be read - asvehicles for the conveyance of moral teachings, not as literal history

Edited March 13, 2014 by Gray

[Bikeemikey]

What theory do you ascribe to? Traditional evolutionary theory?

 

If you are really trying to square science with religion then I think we should leave out alien intervention. Unless you can point to credentialed peer reviewed science that supports such theories

 

Not peer reviewed science that supports Alien Intervention... the LDS scriptures support that position well enough.

[Coreyb]

Well there are many theories

 

Premordial soup where proteins just bounced around to form amino acids that eventually formed DNA that eventually turned into mononucleic life that evolved into polynucleic life that evolved higher and higher etc. etc.

 

Forms of life in hibernation came to earth in the form of an asteroid or comet and seeded our world billions of years ago.

 

Those are just two theories

 

Hell one theory is that we were created by aliens, and another is that we are all living in a virtual reality like the matrix. 

 

If we were created via intelligent design I don't think it was done by a singular entity. But to remain objective I can't completely dismiss it. I just think it is the least probable, or among the least probable I should say.

I wonder, how does the primordial soup idea fit with the idea of entropy? Can the two of them coexist? The hibernation theory doesn't answer the question, it just pushes it back. The alien theory is the one closest to the Mormon ideas about the origin of life IMO, but it doesn't answer the question either. Hence the soul question posed by W. W. Phelps...

 

If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

 

Also, Mormons dont hold to the Christian Idea that we were created by just one entity. There were at least Elohim, Yahweh, Micheal, and most likely a Maternal Deity as well,(and probably others).

[JLHPROF]

Can science and scripture co-exist?  Probably not.

Can science and religion co-exist?  Absolutely - once all truth is made known by God I am sure it will make perfect sense scientifically.  Until then we will continue to have people trying to explain religion using scientific explanations and trying to explain science using religious explanations and failing to mesh the two.  Because in the end we don't have enough religious knowledge or enough scientific knowledge to bring them into real harmony ourselves (although there are those who find enough harmony to accept both as they currently are presented).

[thesometimesaint]

When I say transcend I mean transcend to a higher level of awareness and understanding of the world and universe around us. Technology is what has made us able to transcend from neanderthals to a post industrial society. Who says technology isn't able to help us transcend the temporal. And by the temporal I am assuming you mean time. Well one could argue that you can't go back in time, once the past is set, it is set. But there could theoretically be places of existence where time is meaningless. But you also have to realize is that there is always a continuum. For instance, people talk about the fourth dimension being time, that is not true, it is more accurate to say the fourth dimension is duration and what we perceive as time are just cross sections of the present to the future and when you look at this on a grand scale it looks like a line, hence, timeline. But time, or more accurately, duration, is relative, the more velocity you have or the closer you are to a gravitational body with momentum duration slows down relative to everything else. This is why when we look at string theory we get 10 spatial dimensions and 1 dimension of time, the fourth of those spatial dimensions being duration. But other than duration, there is always a continuum. What if we were fifth dimensional beings? Then we would be able to see forward and all the possibilities of what could happen based on choice, probability, etc.

 

When I talk about science and scripture coexisting what about the fact that scripture says that the earth is only 6000 years old when we have proof that it is much, much older?

 

And also, I don't see how my post and topic title don't relate. By scripture I also mean religion and the concept of a monotheistic god, as well as the bible and BOM

 

The Scriptures don't say that. Archbishop Ussher did

[thesometimesaint]

Well there are many theories

 

Premordial soup where proteins just bounced around to form amino acids that eventually formed DNA that eventually turned into mononucleic life that evolved into polynucleic life that evolved higher and higher etc. etc.

 

Forms of life in hibernation came to earth in the form of an asteroid or comet and seeded our world billions of years ago.

 

Those are just two theories

 

Hell one theory is that we were created by aliens, and another is that we are all living in a virtual reality like the matrix. 

 

If we were created via intelligent design I don't think it was done by a singular entity. But to remain objective I can't completely dismiss it. I just think it is the least probable, or among the least probable I should say.

 

What's that going on between our legs. No intelligent engineer puts a recreation park next to a sewage treatment plant. 

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

Given your point of view, I'd be interested to hear your explanation on Christ's atonement being described in the Book of Mormon as infinite?

Endless in its application and effect. Thats how i take it to mean.

[Freedom]

Science and religion are not related in my opinion. For example, gravity and prayer are not related and the laws governing one has no effect on the other, other than the recommendation that we kneel beside our bed at night. This would prove difficult without gravity. And perhaps the administration of the sacrament would have to change. Science tells how we got here, the scriptures tell us why we got here. In my view, God would not be god if he did not have a wife who is equal to him. By defining god by gender we are perhaps getting bogged down in contemporary gender debates. When I read the scriptures I do not get the impression that the earth is 6000 years old. I read the temple ceremony and understand it as a part of the plan of salvation. Do not confuse the principles of the gospel with the scientific theories of electricity or dna. Do not decide on how good a movie is based on the quality of the seat in the movie theater. Science and religion simply are not related disciplines. 

[thesometimesaint]

Science and religion are not related in my opinion. For example, gravity and prayer are not related and the laws governing one has no effect on the other, other than the recommendation that we kneel beside our bed at night. This would prove difficult without gravity. And perhaps the administration of the sacrament would have to change. Science tells how we got here, the scriptures tell us why we got here. In my view, God would not be god if he did not have a wife who is equal to him. By defining god by gender we are perhaps getting bogged down in contemporary gender debates. When I read the scriptures I do not get the impression that the earth is 6000 years old. I read the temple ceremony and understand it as a part of the plan of salvation. Do not confuse the principles of the gospel with the scientific theories of electricity or dna. Do not decide on how good a movie is based on the quality of the seat in the movie theater. Science and religion simply are not related disciplines. 

 

Agreed.

[Rob Osborn]

Science and religion are very much connected in more ways than we realize. Explaining everything from "intelligence" to "how and why we came into existence makes no sense outside of a religious context nor can it have an answer outside of God.

[thesometimesaint]

Science and religion are very much connected in more ways than we realize. Explaining everything from "intelligence" to "how and why we came into existence makes no sense outside of a religious context nor can it have an answer outside of God.

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

 

Galileo the Theist

[Rob Osborn]

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

 

Galileo the Theist

You keep quoting that but you make no sense quoting it. Please explain how God is required to create life.

[JLHPROF]

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

 

Galileo the Theist

 

You do like this quote don't you? 

 

It does remind us that even God is bound to follow natural law (except when turning water to wine, walking on water, raising the dead, etc).  But assuming that we understand natural law correctly is where science and religion can't agree.

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

You keep quoting that but you make no sense quoting it. Please explain how God is required to create life.

 

He isn't. I choose to believe in God. The science doesn't depend on a being called God.

[Rob Osborn]

He isn't. I choose to believe in God. The science doesn't depend on a being called God.

So, you don't believe it required God to bring life to pass?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, you don't believe it required God to bring life to pass?

I do. Carry on. You should specify though that you you believe that God is required for life to begin or originate.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[teddyaware]

Science and religion are not related in my opinion. For example, gravity and prayer are not related and the laws governing one has no effect on the other, other than the recommendation that we kneel beside our bed at night. This would prove difficult without gravity. And perhaps the administration of the sacrament would have to change. Science tells how we got here, the scriptures tell us why we got here. In my view, God would not be god if he did not have a wife who is equal to him. By defining god by gender we are perhaps getting bogged down in contemporary gender debates. When I read the scriptures I do not get the impression that the earth is 6000 years old. I read the temple ceremony and understand it as a part of the plan of salvation. Do not confuse the principles of the gospel with the scientific theories of electricity or dna. Do not decide on how good a movie is based on the quality of the seat in the movie theater. Science and religion simply are not related disciplines. 

I would be supremely confident to risk everything on the fact that God Himself would say the perception that science and religion are unrelated disciplines is a load of complete and utter nonsense -- the scriptures belie the whole of it.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88)

 

And again,

45 The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.

46 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?

47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.

 

Whenever a scientist does his work in any field of science he is seeing God moving in His majesty and power. Just because he doesn't as yet realize he is seeing God at work doesn't mean it's any less true.

Edited March 13, 2014 by teddyaware

[Truth 101]

What's that going on between our legs. No intelligent engineer puts a recreation park next to a sewage treatment plant. 

 

Hahahaha. Well put my friend, well put.

[Freedom]

I would be supremely confident to risk everything on the fact that God Himself would say the perception that science and religion are unrelated disciplines is a load of complete and utter nonsense -- the scriptures belie the whole of it.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88)

 

And again,

45 The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.

46 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?

47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.

 

Whenever a scientist does his work in any field of science he is seeing God moving in His majesty and power. Just because he doesn't as yet realize he is seeing God at work doesn't mean it's any less true.

yes yes, all things are government by laws. Literature is governed by the laws of spelling and grammar, but not with the laws of chemistry. So god created the earth through natural means. This has nothing to do with the principle of faith or service. The gospel does not concern itself with scientific matters. You will not find a church doctrine or policy governing any of the scientific theories. The gospel concerns itself with our salvation, not with how life came to be, how old the earth is, where the nephites lives, how does god bend time and space ect. 

[teddyaware]

yes yes, all things are government by laws. Literature is governed by the laws of spelling and grammar, but not with the laws of chemistry. So god created the earth through natural means. This has nothing to do with the principle of faith or service. The gospel does not concern itself with scientific matters. You will not find a church doctrine or policy governing any of the scientific theories. The gospel concerns itself with our salvation, not with how life came to be, how old the earth is, where the nephites lives, how does god bend time and space ect.

You missed my point. What I tried to say, in effect, is that I have perfect confidence one day God will reveal that science and religion are fully related and integrated disciplines and that they are, in fact, one and the same thing. The only reason why many scientists think these two are separate disciplines is because at this point in time they don't yet know enough about science to realize science and religion are one and the same. Remember, I'm speaking of things from God's perspective, not ours. Because God knows infinitely more about science than do fallen earthly scientists, he realizes the seeming separateness of these two disciplines is merely and illusion based on ignorance.

Remember that President Uchtdorf recently warned us to realize we humans know very, very little and have an extremely limited perspective here on our little "leaf" of a planet in the midst of the immensity of an eternal "forest" of undiscovered truths. The Gospel teaches us all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. As a consequence, I have perfect confidence you will one day realize science and religion are the same.

Edited March 14, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

You missed my point. What I tried to say, in effect, is that I have perfect confidence one day God will reveal that science and religion are fully related and integrated disciplines and that they are, in fact, one and the same thing. The only reason why many scientists think these two are separate disciplines is because at this point in time they don't yet know enough about science to realize science and religion are one and the same. Remember, I'm speaking of things from God's perspective, not ours. Because God knows infinitely more about science than do fallen earthly scientists, he realizes the seeming separateness of these two disciplines is merely and illusion based on ignorance.

Remember that President Uchtdorf recently warned us to realize we humans know very, very little and have an extremely limited perspective here on our little "leaf" of a planet in the midst of the immensity of an eternal "forest" of undiscovered truths. The Gospel teaches us all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. As a consequence, I have perfect confidence you will one day realize science and religion are the same.

 

Agreed; and would add that we know very little about God and science.

[teddyaware]

Agreed; and would add that we know very little about God and science.

This is a very happy moment for me; I'm actually a little misty-eyed.  Dialogue has served it's purpose. Although for me,  it sure was an agonizing exercise. My very best to you...

Edited March 14, 2014 by teddyaware

[Avatar4321]

Considering they've coexisted since the begining of human experience, yes.