Rob Osborn Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 If anyone can believe that life here on this planet was not the cause of our Great God but just the probability factor of it happening randomly just because there are a billions of other galaxies, well, then they should do some serious rethinking. I think one would find greater odds of flipping a coin and have it land on its end ten billions times in a row.
thesometimesaint Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 If anyone can believe that life here on this planet was not the cause of our Great God but just the probability factor of it happening randomly just because there are a billions of other galaxies, well, then they should do some serious rethinking. I think one would find greater odds of flipping a coin and have it land on its end ten billions times in a row. Abiogenesis is the opposite of random chance. Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculationshttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
Rob Osborn Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 Abiogenesis is the opposite of random chance.Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics,and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculationshttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.htmlYou guys cannot even prove that abiogenesis happened. There is absolutely no evidence for it. Besideas that "fact", you still cant prove that life didnt begin here on this planet as anything other than fully formed and functioning in its onset. Does this post firmly state your position that life can arise on its own void of God?
thesometimesaint Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 You guys cannot even prove that abiogenesis happened. There is absolutely no evidence for it. Besideas that "fact", you still cant prove that life didnt begin here on this planet as anything other than fully formed and functioning in its onset. Does this post firmly state your position that life can arise on its own void of God? I never said prove. Just that there is substantial evidence for it. Science is Agnostic on questions of God. Scientists are free to believe or not believe as is their choice.
Rob Osborn Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 I never said prove. Just that there is substantial evidence for it. Science is Agnostic on questions of God. Scientists are free to believe or not believe as is their choice.Substantial evidence for abiogenesis? Thats the best joke I have heard all month!
Truth 101 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Are you suggesting that because of all the planets, galaxies, etc, that the odds were in favor of life happening somewhere? Absolutely. It is arrogant to think we are alone in this universe. Even in this galaxy. May it be Intelligent life or microbial life. Cause that's how we started. Microbial. And the numbers I gave before are just in the observable universe. Is it infinite? So infinite it allows for parallel worlds that are like our but so far away we'll never find them? If the universe is truly infinite everything that has or will exist has and will. Personally I don't know, and neither does anybody alive. What I think though is there are beings that exist in higher planes of reality and cognition than us, and that we can become like them, and that they will transcend as well. Transcendence never stops. Edited March 18, 2014 by Truth 101
Calm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) All the information we have available is at our fingertips. Feel better?Nope. There is a lot of information out there available to me that is not at my fingertips, such as doctors' opinions, research being done of various scientific process, digs of ancient burial sites, etc. If I limit the information I look for to only that which is "at my fingertips" I will be living a very uninformed life. Edited March 18, 2014 by calmoriah
Rob Osborn Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Absolutely. It is arrogant to think we are alone in this universe. Even in this galaxy. May it be Intelligent life or microbial life. Cause that's how we started. Microbial. And the numbers I gave before are just in the observable universe. Is it infinite? So infinite it allows for parallel worlds that are like our but so far away we'll never find them? If the universe is truly infinite everything that has or will exist has and will. Personally I don't know, and neither does anybody alive. What I think though is there are beings that exist in higher planes of reality and cognition than us, and that we can become like them, and that they will transcend as well. Transcendence never stops. Well, I believe in God that he created life and we aren't random at all. I don't believe in an infinite universe, but then again- I don't believe in the infinite other than a means to say "endless". The universe may be endless, who knows, but we shall only ever know a finite amount of it no matter how far we expand and know. Theres no doubt in my mind that there are other worlds, endless in nature, so to speak, that are peopled by God just like ours.
thesometimesaint Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Well, I believe in God that he created life and we aren't random at all. I don't believe in an infinite universe, but then again- I don't believe in the infinite other than a means to say "endless". The universe may be endless, who knows, but we shall only ever know a finite amount of it no matter how far we expand and know. Theres no doubt in my mind that there are other worlds, endless in nature, so to speak, that are peopled by God just like ours. I don't believe it is random either, and neither does any scientist that I know of. That doesn't mean they all believe in a God however. I don't believe it is infinite. No scientist that I know does either. But however big it is it is big.http://scaleofuniverse.com/ Few scientists doubt that there are other worlds in the universe that contain life, maybe even life as intelligent or more so than we are. But so far we have no evidence for them. SETI isn't very old and there are literally trillions of wave lengths to search. Who knows they may not need technology like we do to communicate.
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Seriously guys! Are we doing rob vs the world all over again?The Nehor... Come shut this fashizzle down. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Seriously guys! Are we doing rob vs the world all over again?The Nehor... Come shut this fashizzle down. I know. Sometimes I swear I'm sometimes a masochist. I know better, but I can't seem to resist the temptation.
Rob Osborn Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Seriously guys! Are we doing rob vs the world all over again? The Nehor... Come shut this fashizzle down. Just to clarify, Its you few guys versus the churches official doctrines. Edited March 19, 2014 by Rob Osborn
Bikeemikey Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Just to clarify, Its you few guys versus the churches official doctrines.:-)
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Hello everybody. I'm new to this forum and chose this forum because it is comprised of TBM's, jack mormons, non-mormons, ex-mormons, post-mormons. What I'm getting at is that it is very diverse. I like this forum because it seems like everybody here is pretty real and I don't feel like posting on a forum that is just about bashing the church. I do however, have my own reservations about the church. There is a reason why I left and haven't been back and whatnot. I don't know if this topic has been covered but I wanted to start a topic anyway. I am a very scientific person, and there are a few parallels to what the church believes and what I believe, such as the ability to transcend. I believe that the human race will transcend through technology for the most part. But I still think it is possible to transcend without it. I've had some near death experiences and experiences with psychedelic drugs that have led me to believe that there definitely is a higher power and life after death, I just don't think that we've found a way for science to explain it. To start off the topic I'd like to bring up one thing I remember learning when I was a teacher when I was about 14, my quorum's teacher told us that god is bound by the same physical laws that we are. That's cool. But it also leads me to believe that if there was a creator and we are the sum of intelligent design, was technology involved? I also remember asking if there was a heavenly mother, that if Elohim has a wife (or wives I guess you could say). My teacher said yes but he doesn't talk about her because he doesn't want her name to be taken in vain like people do with his, he does it to protect her. Which is sweet when you think about it. I wouldn't want mere mortals saying rude things about the woman I love more than anything in the universe. In another thread somebody misunderstood me when I said I believed that god was a woman. I do not believe god to be a singular being, but maybe some sort of vast collective consciousness that we can't fully understand. When I said the thing about god being a woman I meant that IF I believed in a singular entity as a god, it makes more sense to me that it would be female, not male. But like I just said I do not believe in a single god. The higher power I believe in consists of both genders. I also believe that if there were higher powers it fits nicely with the multiverse theory (kind of). Maybe everytime transcendence happens a whole new universe is created. Thoughts? Opinions?They already co-exist, within Mormon theology, very well indeed. For us matter has always existed in one form or another, until it was, organized into this world, and countless worlds. This is why like other faiths are not tied to the young earth theory. My always like to argue "Ex-Nilo, but If God, just spoke all into being, then why did it take millions of years (billions really).
Truth 101 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 Nope. There is a lot of information out there available to me that is not at my fingertips, such as doctors' opinions, research being done of various scientific process, digs of ancient burial sites, etc. If I limit the information I look for to only that which is "at my fingertips" I will be living a very uninformed life. K dude, the point I'm trying to make is that we take in hundreds the times the information on a daily basis as an average person did say 2000 years ago. And not only that, but information is so widespread nowadays. No, the internet is not omniscient, but it is quite the wealth of information. Information not available to the average person two decades ago (unless you count libraries)
thesometimesaint Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Just to clarify, Its you few guys versus the churches official doctrines. No it isn't it. We object to your interpretation of Church doctrines.
thesometimesaint Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 They already co-exist, within Mormon theology, very well indeed. For us matter has always existed in one form or another, until it was, organized into this world, and countless worlds. This is why like other faiths are not tied to the young earth theory. My always like to argue "Ex-Nilo, but If God, just spoke all into being, then why did it take millions of years (billions really). What is a few billions of years to eternal beings?
Bikeemikey Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 What is a few billions of years to eternal beings? Approximately a few billion years, but thats just my guess... Even if your eternal you still have to find something to fill your time. Unless celestial beings sleep a lot. Can you imagine filling a few billion years with netflix? You would be able to watch every movie 1000 times (twice that if you didnt have to sleep, poop or eat).
Truth 101 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 Approximately a few billion years, but thats just my guess... Even if your eternal you still have to find something to fill your time. Unless celestial beings sleep a lot. Can you imagine filling a few billion years with netflix? You would be able to watch every movie 1000 times (twice that if you didnt have to sleep, poop or eat).lol
Rob Osborn Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 No it isn't it. We object to your interpretation of Church doctrines.Oh really? Even when I quote straight from the LDS.org site you still think its just my interpretation? You guys need to get with the program and at least admit your views do not align with official church doctrine.
thesometimesaint Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Approximately a few billion years, but thats just my guess... Even if your eternal you still have to find something to fill your time. Unless celestial beings sleep a lot. Can you imagine filling a few billion years with netflix? You would be able to watch every movie 1000 times (twice that if you didnt have to sleep, poop or eat). I don't know if they need to sleep at all. But apparently God rests one day in seven. I barely got through calculus in school. It might take me a while to finally get it and move on to bigger and better ideas.
Rob Osborn Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Lest see, lets start with No death before the fall. Here is a list by R. Gary from his NDBF blog- http://ndbf.net/NDBF%20in%20LDS%20media.htm Where do you guys line up with?You: Do not alignChurch: Check How about the flood? Here- https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/flood-at-noahs-time?lang=eng Where do you guys line up with?You: Do not alignChurch: Check How about the duration of man and death on earth? Here- 6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was asealed on the back with seven seals?A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, bmysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this cearth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. (D&C 77:6) Where do you guys line up with? You: Do not alignChurch: Check The earth all one land and then divided by oceans in the past few thousand years. Here- https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/earth-dividing-ofhttps://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-133-the-lords-appendix-to-the-doctrine-and-covenants?lang=eng&query=earth+dividedhttps://www.lds.org/new-era/1971/03/gondwanaland-what-it-means-to-latter-day-saints?lang=eng&query=earth+divided 25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was aPeleg; for in his days was the earth bdivided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. (Gen 10:24) 23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the aislands shall become one land; 24 And the aland of Jerusalem and the land of bZion shall be turned back into their own place, and the cearth shall be like as it was in the days before it was ddivided. (D&C 133:23-24) Where do you guys line up with? You guys: Do not alignChurch: Check On if man evolved from a lower order of species. Here- https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/manual/print/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng Where do you guys line up with? You guys: Do not alignChurch: Check.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 You guys: Do not alignChurch: Check.Rob,We need to be careful here with our interpretation of scriptures. Revelation is given upon one's own understanding. And also the fact that man is fallible and so is his understanding, I am not surprised that some of those things might not be exactly as they are recorded in scripture. Please note that I don't think the scriptures are wrong in an absolute way. Just that our understanding might be wrong and those that recorded the revelations. Consider this clip. This Leader in Islam has a rigid ideology that I am not sure the Koran requires.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/18/saudi-cleric-no-doubt-the-sun-revolves-around-the-earth/ I am just not sure that we should hold such a rigid ideology when it comes to some interpretations.
Rob Osborn Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Rob,We need to be careful here with our interpretation of scriptures. Revelation is given upon one's own understanding. And also the fact that man is fallible and so is his understanding, I am not surprised that some of those things might not be exactly as they are recorded in scripture. Please note that I don't think the scriptures are wrong in an absolute way. Just that our understanding might be wrong and those that recorded the revelations. Consider this clip. This Leader in Islam has a rigid ideology that I am not sure the Koran requires.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/18/saudi-cleric-no-doubt-the-sun-revolves-around-the-earth/ I am just not sure that we should hold such a rigid ideology when it comes to some interpretations.Look, I am just trying to get people to own up to where their beliefs line up with. Not the interpretation, etc. I have no issue telling people here and other places that my view of the kingdom of heaven does not align with the Churches official teachings. I just want people to own up and quit saying its solely my interpretation and their views are the ones that line up with the church. They absolutely do not line up with every topic I listed with links. Just want people to be honest and say "its true my scientific beliefs on these matters do not align with the churches official teachings of these matters". Thats all. Thats not too much to ask.
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