Keep Sweet

[mercyngrace]

Job did not do any "calling out" of God (if I understand your meaning of the term correctly).

 

His wife pushed and taunted him to do just that, to "curse God and die." But Job ignored her railing and, instead, testifed, "I know that my Redeemer liveth and that he shall stand in the last day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

 

(That's the best I can quote it from memory; I didn't bother to look it up.)

 

Actually Job did call God out. He said (paraphrasing), 'If I've done anything wrong, show me!If I've been unjust or broken the law, let's see your evidence.'

 

God responded by saying 'Where were you when I created this earth? When I defeated Leviathan? ' etc

 

It's fascinating - you should reread it. Job had serious chutzphah.

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually Job did call God out. He said (paraphrasing), 'If I've done anything wrong, show me!If I've been unjust or broken the law, let's see your evidence.'

 

God responded by saying 'Where were you when I created this earth? When I defeated Leviathan? ' etc

 

It's fascinating - you should reread it. Job had serious chutzphah.

Taken in context, I don't view what Job said as "calling out."  (Again, you and I may be working with differing definitions of the term.)

 

To me, it's more like Joseph Smith's prayer uttered in Liberty Jail and recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 121. (O God, where art thou and where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?) I don't see that as accusatory or confrontational in any respect toward God. I see it as an earnest and plaintive -- even a poetic -- cry for help, comfort, assurance and solace.

 

To me, the prayer of Job and the accusatory taunting of his wife are worlds apart.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

Actually Job did call God out. He said (paraphrasing), 'If I've done anything wrong, show me!If I've been unjust or broken the law, let's see your evidence.'

God responded by saying 'Where were you when I created this earth? When I defeated Leviathan? ' etc

It's fascinating - you should reread it. Job had serious chutzphah.

I agree with you, and our Father was basically letting Job know who was in charge while seeing if Job would endure his big test. And he did.

[Ahab]

Taken in context, I don't view that as "calling out." (Again, you and I may be working with differing definitions of the term.)

To me, it's more like Joseph Smith's prayer uttered in Liberty Jail and recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 121. (O God, where art thou and where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?) I don't see that as accusatory in any respect toward God. I see it as a plaintive -- even a poetic -- cry for help, comfort, assurance and solace.

To me, the prayer of Job and the accusatory taunting of his wife are worlds apart.

I agree with your point too. Maybe instead of saying Job was calling God out we could call it Job calling out God.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree with your point too. Maybe instead of saying Job was calling God out we could call it Job calling out God.

If you amend it to say "calling out to God," I'm with you.

[Ahab]

If you amend it to say "calling out to God," I'm with you.

Yeah, that works too.

[EllenMaksoud]

I was just watching a bit of a CES fireside this evening. Enough to hear the speaker extol the virtues of not being critical or negative regarding the church or it’s leadership. That’s when I stopped watching.

What was interesting to me was that I had just finished watching an old classic called, “How green was my Valley”. At one point in the movie the young men in a family had wanted to speak their minds during the family meal, regarding something they knew to be unjust and the family father had tried to suppress their efforts by virtue of his authority as head of the family, stating that it would be bad manners. The “bad manners” excuse was just a ploy to permanently silence discussion of the matter. One of the older sons spoke up and said, “If manners prevent our speaking the truth, then we will be without manners.” And he drove the discussion on as indeed it should have been.

That in turn reminded me of a “principle” taught to all women in the FLDS church called “Keep Sweet”. Another ploy to suppress women, or anyone for that matter, from being critical or negative when dealing with church leadership. I have often thought how very convenient that is for the leadership and how very much it resembles not speaking critically of the Lord’s anointed.

So I pose the question, if leadership seeks to insulate themselves from criticism and attempts to stifle those who will speak the truth, how can they ever hope to improve themselves or their organization?

That is unless one ascribes to the idea that the only one worthy to criticize them is the Lord………….

Well, there are a couple issues where I am sure they are wrong and I am madder than a hornet about them. However, I do not want the burden of righting what I think of as their wrongs because what I would do might have enormous negative consequences. So, then I have to either settle down and pray for them or leave the church. I choose the former.

[mercyngrace]

Taken in context, I don't view what Job said as "calling out."  (Again, you and I may be working with differing definitions of the term.)

 

To me, it's more like Joseph Smith's prayer uttered in Liberty Jail and recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 121. (O God, where art thou and where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?) I don't see that as accusatory or confrontational in any respect toward God. I see it as an earnest and plaintive -- even a poetic -- cry for help, comfort, assurance and solace.

 

To me, the prayer of Job and the accusatory taunting of his wife are worlds apart.

 

 

I agree with you, and our Father was basically letting Job know who was in charge while seeing if Job would endure his big test. And he did.

 

This could be the subject of a whole new thread

 

I disagree that Job was just petitioning God. He accused God of laughing at the trials of the innocent. That's quite a few steps further than anything in D&C 122, in my opinion. However, it is my opinion, and we're all entitled to have one of those. It's not something I feel like writing a dissertation on. LOL. 

[Scott Lloyd]

 

I disagree that Job was just petitioning God. He accused God of laughing at the trials of the innocent.

CFR.

[EllenMaksoud]

I was just watching a bit of a CES fireside this evening. Enough to hear the speaker extol the virtues of not being critical or negative regarding the church or it’s leadership. That’s when I stopped watching.

What was interesting to me was that I had just finished watching an old classic called, “How green was my Valley”. At one point in the movie the young men in a family had wanted to speak their minds during the family meal, regarding something they knew to be unjust and the family father had tried to suppress their efforts by virtue of his authority as head of the family, stating that it would be bad manners. The “bad manners” excuse was just a ploy to permanently silence discussion of the matter. One of the older sons spoke up and said, “If manners prevent our speaking the truth, then we will be without manners.” And he drove the discussion on as indeed it should have been.

That in turn reminded me of a “principle” taught to all women in the FLDS church called “Keep Sweet”. Another ploy to suppress women, or anyone for that matter, from being critical or negative when dealing with church leadership. I have often thought how very convenient that is for the leadership and how very much it resembles not speaking critically of the Lord’s anointed.

So I pose the question, if leadership seeks to insulate themselves from criticism and attempts to stifle those who will speak the truth, how can they ever hope to improve themselves or their organization?

That is unless one ascribes to the idea that the only one worthy to criticize them is the Lord………….

It took me some time to remember, but certain tribes in Afghanistan do not educate their women, and hardly let them out of the house, certainly never into the village for the purpose of keeping them sweet.

[Calm]

CFR.

Perhaps Job 9:

" 22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

 23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent."

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps Job 9:

" 22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

 23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent."

Hmm. Seems pretty ambiguous to me.

 

I can't conclude that this amounts to Job complaining or accusing God when the overall tenor and context of the chapter seems to be what is suggested in the chapter header in the LDS edition of the King James Bible:

 

 

Job acknowledges the justice and greatness of God and concludes that man cannot contend against Him.

 

Edited March 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[BCSpace]

That in turn reminded me of a “principle” taught to all women in the FLDS church called “Keep Sweet”. Another ploy to suppress women, or anyone for that matter, from being critical or negative when dealing with church leadership. I have often thought how very convenient that is for the leadership and how very much it resembles not speaking critically of the Lord’s anointed.

 

Maybe we could combine this with the LDS YW "low hanging fruit" hypothesis and call the new principle 'Picked Sweet'.  Not to be confused with Pictsweet.

 

[mercyngrace]

Thanks Cal - I've been too busy at work this morning to check in....

 

And given the call I just got from an irate client, I'm going to stay busy. I need a vacation. 

[David T]

If you're calling out and insulting God based on an improper view, based on characteristics and paradigms that one has been taught, but are not reflective of his actual personality and/or deeds, God likely often is merciful , thinking, "Hey, if I was really like you believe I am, I'd fully deserve that." - You know, like Pahoran did when Captain Moroni threatened to murder him 

Edited March 5, 2014 by David T

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks Cal - I've been too busy at work this morning to check in....

 

And given the call I just got from an irate client, I'm going to stay busy. I need a vacation. 

Though it was a credible effort, what cal provided is quite inconclusive, given the context and tenor of the chapter.

[Palerider]

No one mentioned Nazis here.

[Palerider]

I think you're hitting much closer to the mark here. I can get on board with this.

[Palerider]

I absolutely agree. That's why I don't go there............

[Palerider]

Sorry guys, I'm using a new computer that I'm unfamiliar with and it isn't allowing me to respond directly to any particular post.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sorry guys, I'm using a new computer that I'm unfamiliar with and it isn't allowing me to respond directly to any particular post.

A pity.

 

Without that capability, your posts are not making sense.

[The Nehor]

A pity.

 

Without that capability, your posts are not making sense.

I didn't notice any change.

[Skylla]

I know, let's compare church leaders to really creepy criminals!  Nazis are so overdone.

Agreed.  This is not a good way to start a thread.

 

Skylla