Sunday School And A Worldwide Flood (Pt.3)

[Rob Osborn]

No, you don't get it! Stop saying you do and then spouting drivel. You're humiliating yourself.

 

It is not the similarity in appearance. It is the similarity in genetics in which we can see bits and pieces of the progression over time. It has little or nothing to do with us both being bipeds.

 

 

And the problem with that is that your interpretation of the fossil record comes from discredited quacks. Don't bring up Behe. He would not agree with you about the fossil record in any case.

Oh yeah, thats right- similarity in genetics...I forgot. So tell me- how do they extract genetic material to study from 6 million year old fossils,, or was that 25 million year old fossils?

[The Nehor]

Oh yeah, thats right- similarity in genetics...I forgot. So tell me- how do they extract genetic material to study from 6 million year old fossils,, or was that 25 million year old fossils?

 

It is pretty difficult. However that is NOT what I said. You keep throwing vague statements and I can't tell whether you are willfully misunderstanding or are just filling in the blanks in your comprehension with what you imagine I am saying.

 

I said we compared the DNA of chimps and humans and (surprise!) those are fairly easy to acquire. We can even find genetic markers similar to those we use to track population migrations and we share the same mutations.

[Rob Osborn]

It is pretty difficult. However that is NOT what I said. You keep throwing vague statements and I can't tell whether you are willfully misunderstanding or are just filling in the blanks in your comprehension with what you imagine I am saying.

 

I said we compared the DNA of chimps and humans and (surprise!) those are fairly easy to acquire. We can even find genetic markers similar to those we use to track population migrations and we share the same mutations.

Well, you are the one making the vague statements- like if it was 6 million or 25 million..thats pretty vague- about 19 million years vague. Thats a pretty pretty long amount of time. Evolutionists toss around tens of millions of years as if it is nothing- just another day, just another walk in the park. Don't you find it rather strange that scientists can disagree in the tens of millions of years on something but yet still agree with the same outcome regardless? Then you start adding in copy errors and mutations and 50 million years later, or was it a 100 million years, anyways, lots of millions of years later the dang crocodile is still a crocodile, the fish with lobed fins is still a fish with lobed fins, etc.

[The Nehor]

Well, you are the one making the vague statements- like if it was 6 million or 25 million..thats pretty vague- about 19 million years vague. Thats a pretty pretty long amount of time. Evolutionists toss around tens of millions of years as if it is nothing- just another day, just another walk in the park. Don't you find it rather strange that scientists can disagree in the tens of millions of years on something but yet still agree with the same outcome regardless? Then you start adding in copy errors and mutations and 50 million years later, or was it a 100 million years, anyways, lots of millions of years later the dang crocodile is still a crocodile, the fish with lobed fins is still a fish with lobed fins, etc.

Expressing uncertainty about a specific is not being vague. It is being clear that you are uncertain. Then you make the mindless assertion that because people are uncertain about a specific they think tens of millions of years are insignificant. Then you insinuate that your pseudoscience is right again because of these unfounded assertions.

See? That is vagueness. Your premises do not lead to your conclusions and you haven't actually said anything at all.

[Rob Osborn]

Expressing uncertainty about a specific is not being vague. It is being clear that you are uncertain. Then you make the mindless assertion that because people are uncertain about a specific they think tens of millions of years are insignificant. Then you insinuate that your pseudoscience is right again because of these unfounded assertions.

See? That is vagueness. Your premises do not lead to your conclusions and you haven't actually said anything at all.

How could one be uncertain though concerning tens of millions of years?

[The Nehor]

How could one be uncertain though concerning tens of millions of years?

 

Uncertainty over interpretation of the data, insufficient data, working on reconciling what at first appears to be conflicting data.

 

Humanity in general did not even know we had tens of millions of years to be concerned with until the last few centuries.

[thesometimesaint]

Its not that high. Anyways, even if we are so similar how come we are so different? Especially, why is our abilities, natures and intelligence so completely different?

 

Yes it is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics

 

The alignable sequences within genomes of humans and chimpanzees differ by about 35 million single-nucleotide substitutions. Additionally about 3% of the complete genomes differ by deletions, insertions and duplications.

Since mutation rate is relatively constant, roughly one half of these changes occurred in the human lineage. Only a very tiny fraction of those fixed differences gave rise to the different phenotypes of humans and chimpanzees and finding those is a great challenge. The vast majority of the differences are neutral and do not affect the phenotype.

Molecular evolution may act in different ways, through protein evolution, gene loss, differential gene regulation and RNA evolution. All are thought to have played some part in human evolution.

 

And http://www.livescience.com/18892-gorillas-humans-gene-sequence.html

 

Different evolutionary paths. Much larger brains, functional vocal chords, true bipedality, for starters.

[thesometimesaint]

Well, you are the one making the vague statements- like if it was 6 million or 25 million..thats pretty vague- about 19 million years vague. Thats a pretty pretty long amount of time. Evolutionists toss around tens of millions of years as if it is nothing- just another day, just another walk in the park. Don't you find it rather strange that scientists can disagree in the tens of millions of years on something but yet still agree with the same outcome regardless? Then you start adding in copy errors and mutations and 50 million years later, or was it a 100 million years, anyways, lots of millions of years later the dang crocodile is still a crocodile, the fish with lobed fins is still a fish with lobed fins, etc.

 

6 million compared to 4.5 billion is rounding error. 7,000 compared 4.5 billion isn't even in same solar system.

 

Life is successful at filling every ecological niche open to it. Whales and elephants are evolutionarily related mammals. But they both fit in entirely different ecological niches.

[Rob Osborn]

Uncertainty over interpretation of the data, insufficient data, working on reconciling what at first appears to be conflicting data.

 

Humanity in general did not even know we had tens of millions of years to be concerned with until the last few centuries.

Yeah, until modern science rolled along we kind of just took the good books word on things. Then ol science came a knocking and the wisdom of man shattered all that. All the things we see in geology and nature can be explained nicely in the good book but then science comes along and says all of it is wrong- says God is not only wrong but he is mythical too!

[Rob Osborn]

Yes it is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics

 

The alignable sequences within genomes of humans and chimpanzees differ by about 35 million single-nucleotide substitutions. Additionally about 3% of the complete genomes differ by deletions, insertions and duplications.

Since mutation rate is relatively constant, roughly one half of these changes occurred in the human lineage. Only a very tiny fraction of those fixed differences gave rise to the different phenotypes of humans and chimpanzees and finding those is a great challenge. The vast majority of the differences are neutral and do not affect the phenotype.

Molecular evolution may act in different ways, through protein evolution, gene loss, differential gene regulation and RNA evolution. All are thought to have played some part in human evolution.

 

And http://www.livescience.com/18892-gorillas-humans-gene-sequence.html

 

Different evolutionary paths. Much larger brains, functional vocal chords, true bipedality, for starters.

So, what you are saying is that the 3% makes up the vast difference in what makes them animals and us super intelligent humans who build spaceships, write languages and walk upright?

[thesometimesaint]

So, what you are saying is that the 3% makes up the vast difference in what makes them animals and us super intelligent humans who build spaceships, write languages and walk upright?

 

Yep. Given that we believe God looks like us(or we look like him) three percent is more than enough.

[Rob Osborn]

6 million compared to 4.5 billion is rounding error. 7,000 compared 4.5 billion isn't even in same solar system.

 

Life is successful at filling every ecological niche open to it. Whales and elephants are evolutionarily related mammals. But they both fit in entirely different ecological niches.

Lets see, how does our doctrine compare with science-

 

Matter:

In LDS: it has always existed and cannot be created from nothing or be destroyed to nothing.

In science terms: Pretty vague, they have the big bang theory but no scientists can explain the existence of what was before that.

 

Age of the universe:

in LDS: God continues to bring to pass worlds, not sure how long it has been formed or been around

in science terms: 13-14 billion years

 

Age of the earth:

In LDS: God created the earth and made it habitable in seven days or sequences according to his reckoning

in science terms: about 4-5 billion years

 

First life-formation on earth in years:

in LDS: since there was no death before the fall there was no death before roughly 6,000 years ago

in science terms: about 3-4 billion years

 

Where and how life formed:

in LDS: God planted seeds for plants and created the animals or oversaw it each with its own kind

in science terms: All life, plants and animals evolved from non-organic material without any God or need for one

 

On the geologic fossil record:

in LDS: easily explained by the global flood in Noah's time

in science terms: slow natural processes over billions of years, there was never a global flood

 

On the separation and age of continents:

in LDS: happened in Peleg's day some 3-4 thousand years ago

in science terms: long before man, about 200 million years ago

 

On if the continents will reunite:

in LDS yes, within the next few hundred years

in science terms: probably never

 

On if mountains rapidly form:

in LDS: yes, several accounts of this happening both right after the flood and around Christs death in the Americas

in science terms: not unless they are volcanic

 

Where intelligence comes from:

in LDS: from our spirits and ultimately from Gods formation of its finer element into spirit bodies

in science terms: through the process of Darwinian evolution and it is all in our physical minds

 

On the future of life of this planet:

in LDS: we will soon be resurrected to a state of immortality and eternal life never to dies again

in science terms: no resurrection or re-animation of life and we are all doomed to a sudden catastrophic ending in a 100 million years or so of continued evolution.

 

This is just a few things and as you can readily see the gospel and teachings of our Lord God is almost entirely opposite of what science has to say on the matter. Who should we trust? The Lord God who created us, or the hand of man with his blind knowledge of things that are unseen and vague?

[Rob Osborn]

Yep. Given that we believe God looks like us(or we look like him) three percent is more than enough.

Is this just an opinionated calculated guess (conjecture) or is there actual microbiologic evidence from genetic study to prove this.

[Gray]

Lets see, how does our doctrine compare with science-

 

 

On the geologic fossil record:

in LDS: easily explained by the global flood in Noah's time

in science terms: slow natural processes over billions of years, there was never a global flood

 

 

 

The fossil record is not consistent with a global flood. 

[thesometimesaint]

Is this just an opinionated calculated guess (conjecture) or is there actual microbiologic evidence from genetic study to prove this.

 

Actually it is a religious belief tied to a scientific fact.

[Rob Osborn]

Actually it is a religious belief tied to a scientific fact.

Aye

[Rob Osborn]

The fossil record is not consistent with a global flood. 

Yes, it is.

[Gray]

Yes, it is.

 

If a global flood killed off all the dinosaurs, you'd see them all in the same layers as all the species saved by Noah. But that is not what we've found. 

[Rob Osborn]

If a global flood killed off all the dinosaurs, you'd see them all in the same layers as all the species saved by Noah. But that is not what we've found. 

And how would you know this, did you see the events first hand? You are basing your assumptions off of guesswork.

[Gray]

And how would you know this, did you see the events first hand? You are basing your assumptions off of guesswork.

 

Common sense, Rob. If they all died at the same time, they'd be found in the same layer. What we find is nothing even close to that. You'll never find a T-Rex in the same layer as an elephant. 

[thesometimesaint]

Lets see, how does our doctrine compare with science-

 

Matter:

In LDS: it has always existed and cannot be created from nothing or be destroyed to nothing.

In science terms: Pretty vague, they have the big bang theory but no scientists can explain the existence of what was before that.

 

Age of the universe:

in LDS: God continues to bring to pass worlds, not sure how long it has been formed or been around

in science terms: 13-14 billion years

 

Age of the earth:

In LDS: God created the earth and made it habitable in seven days or sequences according to his reckoning

in science terms: about 4-5 billion years

 

First life-formation on earth in years:

in LDS: since there was no death before the fall there was no death before roughly 6,000 years ago

in science terms: about 3-4 billion years

 

Where and how life formed:

in LDS: God planted seeds for plants and created the animals or oversaw it each with its own kind

in science terms: All life, plants and animals evolved from non-organic material without any God or need for one

 

On the geologic fossil record:

in LDS: easily explained by the global flood in Noah's time

in science terms: slow natural processes over billions of years, there was never a global flood

 

On the separation and age of continents:

in LDS: happened in Peleg's day some 3-4 thousand years ago

in science terms: long before man, about 200 million years ago

 

On if the continents will reunite:

in LDS yes, within the next few hundred years

in science terms: probably never

 

On if mountains rapidly form:

in LDS: yes, several accounts of this happening both right after the flood and around Christs death in the Americas

in science terms: not unless they are volcanic

 

Where intelligence comes from:

in LDS: from our spirits and ultimately from Gods formation of its finer element into spirit bodies

in science terms: through the process of Darwinian evolution and it is all in our physical minds

 

On the future of life of this planet:

in LDS: we will soon be resurrected to a state of immortality and eternal life never to dies again

in science terms: no resurrection or re-animation of life and we are all doomed to a sudden catastrophic ending in a 100 million years or so of continued evolution.

 

This is just a few things and as you can readily see the gospel and teachings of our Lord God is almost entirely opposite of what science has to say on the matter. Who should we trust? The Lord God who created us, or the hand of man with his blind knowledge of things that are unseen and vague?

 

E=MCsquared. No; the Big Bang wasn't something from nothing. However that something was incredibly small.

 

The age of the known universe is about 13.82 billions of years old. It will continue to grow and form new stars and planets for a long time to come, until heat death approximately 100, 000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Who knows but that the Gods will once again say "Let there light" and it will be.

 

JS believe the earth was 2.5 billions of years old. Further the Book of Moses gives no definition to the term days. It is folly to believe it was 7 human days.

 

There was no global flood for at least the last 2.5 billions of years.

 

The separation of the continents has been ongoing for at least a 200 million years. It is ongoing today at the rate of about one inch per year.

 

The continents will rejoin together in about 100 million years.

 

Algae don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. Fungi don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. Bananas don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. The list of those those thing that are plants that don't produce seeds is quite long. There is no scientific explanation of kind. Incorrect; Evolution doesn't concern itself with how life first originate on this planet. Science by definition can't posit any God or Godlike force and still be science.

 

The account in the Book of Mormon very accurately describes a volcano. The forming of mountain ranges not so much.

 

We have no idea as to what that "finer" is. We've seen the atom. We can measure it. Make accurate predictions about it. God/Spirit/unearthly intelligence not so much.

 

Soon? You've got to be a bit more specific than that. My dad has been dead for over 21 years. Is that soon enough? Joseph Smith has been dead for about 170 years. Has that been soon enough? We have the bones of some of the early Christians. We're they not righteous enough to be soon enough?

 

In science if a disinterested(nothing to gained or lost) party can not duplicate the science it isn't science. Resurrection alas deals in the supernatural and is beyond the scope of science.

 

There is nothing in science that precludes humans from surviving for another 100 million years, or longer.

 

I trust God. I don't trust every interpretation of what he says.

[The Nehor]

Yeah, until modern science rolled along we kind of just took the good books word on things. Then ol science came a knocking and the wisdom of man shattered all that. All the things we see in geology and nature can be explained nicely in the good book but then science comes along and says all of it is wrong- says God is not only wrong but he is mythical too!

You really need to work harder on your sarcasm. You are awful at it.

Everything you have said has been refuted multiple times. You continue to argue that science has come down on the side that God is a myth despite reality disagreeing with you and having this pointed out to you multiple times. Basically you are deliberately lying. You are a liar. Please repent of that.

[Rob Osborn]

You really need to work harder on your sarcasm. You are awful at it.

Everything you have said has been refuted multiple times. You continue to argue that science has come down on the side that God is a myth despite reality disagreeing with you and having this pointed out to you multiple times. Basically you are deliberately lying. You are a liar. Please repent of that.

Where in Darwinian evolution is God required? NEVER. Darwinian evolutionists refer to God as the "supernatural" and his creation as  "mythical".

[Rob Osborn]

Common sense, Rob. If they all died at the same time, they'd be found in the same layer. What we find is nothing even close to that. You'll never find a T-Rex in the same layer as an elephant. 

You are so wrong. Do yourself a little science experiment and get a large glass jar and place a bunch of different things in it along with differnet chalk dust, clay, etc then mix it all up with water and let it naturally settle and then drain the water off. You will not find "one layer".

[Rob Osborn]

E=MCsquared. No; the Big Bang wasn't something from nothing. However that something was incredibly small.

 

The age of the known universe is about 13.82 billions of years old. It will continue to grow and form new stars and planets for a long time to come, until heat death approximately 100, 000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Who knows but that the Gods will once again say "Let there light" and it will be.

 

JS believe the earth was 2.5 billions of years old. Further the Book of Moses gives no definition to the term days. It is folly to believe it was 7 human days.

 

There was no global flood for at least the last 2.5 billions of years.

 

The separation of the continents has been ongoing for at least a 200 million years. It is ongoing today at the rate of about one inch per year.

 

The continents will rejoin together in about 100 million years.

 

Algae don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. Fungi don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. Bananas don't produce seeds. They are a type of plant. The list of those those thing that are plants that don't produce seeds is quite long. There is no scientific explanation of kind. Incorrect; Evolution doesn't concern itself with how life first originate on this planet. Science by definition can't posit any God or Godlike force and still be science.

 

The account in the Book of Mormon very accurately describes a volcano. The forming of mountain ranges not so much.

 

We have no idea as to what that "finer" is. We've seen the atom. We can measure it. Make accurate predictions about it. God/Spirit/unearthly intelligence not so much.

 

Soon? You've got to be a bit more specific than that. My dad has been dead for over 21 years. Is that soon enough? Joseph Smith has been dead for about 170 years. Has that been soon enough? We have the bones of some of the early Christians. We're they not righteous enough to be soon enough?

 

In science if a disinterested(nothing to gained or lost) party can not duplicate the science it isn't science. Resurrection alas deals in the supernatural and is beyond the scope of science.

 

There is nothing in science that precludes humans from surviving for another 100 million years, or longer.

 

I trust God. I don't trust every interpretation of what he says.

So basically you don't believe in much of anything from the scriptures. Gotcha.