Sunday School And A Worldwide Flood (Pt.3)

[The Nehor]

The Genesis scripture would work if God were dictating Genesis and it was not a later commenter relating what Noah observed without divine revelation about what the flood entailed.

"I have heard some make the broad assertion that every word within the lids of the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them, "You have never read the Bible, have you?" "O, yes, and I believe every word in it is the word of God." Well, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, and the words of good men and the words of bad men; the words of good angels and the words of bad angels and words of the devil; and also the words uttered by the *** when he rebuked the prophet in his madness. I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances." -Brigham Young

Interestingly some of the other scriptures are less convincing. Enoch pled with God not to bring forth the floods (plural). Almost as if there were more then one.

Ether's scripture also never explicitly mentions the flood. Just the waters receding. That could just as easily refer to the creation account where land appeared as it could to Noah's flood.

The subheadings we put over scriptural chapters are not themselves scripture. I know of several corrections to them in the latest edition.

[Rob Osborn]

The Genesis scripture would work if God were dictating Genesis and it was not a later commenter relating what Noah observed without divine revelation about what the flood entailed.

"I have heard some make the broad assertion that every word within the lids of the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them, "You have never read the Bible, have you?" "O, yes, and I believe every word in it is the word of God." Well, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, and the words of good men and the words of bad men; the words of good angels an v6d the words of bad angels and words of the devil; and also the words uttered by the *** when he rebuked the prophet in his madness. I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances." -Brigham Young

Interestingly some of the other scriptures are less convincing. Enoch pled with God not to bring forth the floods (plural). Almost as if there were more then one.

Ether's scripture also never explicitly mentions the flood. Just the waters receding. That could just as easily refer to the creation account where land appeared as it could to Noah's flood.

The subheadings we put over scriptural chapters are not themselves scripture. I know of several corrections to them in the latest edition.

Always seems to be an excuse...

Just curious how you read this covenant given to Enoch as recorded in Moses-

50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah;

If the flood was local then God is a liar and breaks his oaths. There is only one interpretation here and that is that the whole earth was flooded. No excuses here...

[The Nehor]

Always seems to be an excuse...Just curious how you read this covenant given to Enoch as recorded in Moses-50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah;If the flood was local then God is a liar and breaks his oaths. There is only one interpretation here and that is that the whole earth was flooded. No excuses here...

And we have never since seen the catastrophic conditions causing large amounts of damaging local floods like they did though it seems the weather may have been something of a mess. Afterwards the patriarchs seemed to constantly have to deal with famine conditions. You can hardly blame God for that. After all Nimrod built himself a tower and the shot an arrow at heaven and killed God.

Edited February 26, 2014 by The Nehor

[Rob Osborn]

And we have never since seen the catastrophic conditions causing large amounts of damaging local floods like they did though it seems the weather may have been something of a mess. Afterwards the patriarchs seemed to constantly have to deal with famine conditions. You can hardly blame God for that. After all Nimrod built himself a tower and the shot an arrow at heaven and killed God.

It wasnt local floods. The scriptures testify it as being global. You can distort it all you want but you cant change the words- they dont lie. Now of course you can discount Genesis, chalk up Moses as something else, or whatever but you only deceive yourself. The word of God testifies of the global flood that covered the entire earth and destroyed all the flesh from the land under the entire heavens. The word of God also testifies that only this one time would he destroy all flesh with a flood on the entire earth. You can beat around the bush all you want but Gods words are not going to change.

[Brian 2.0]

It wasnt local floods. The scriptures testify it as being global. You can distort it all you want but you cant change the words- they dont lie. Now of course you can discount Genesis, chalk up Moses as something else, or whatever but you only deceive yourself. The word of God testifies of the global flood that covered the entire earth and destroyed all the flesh from the land under the entire heavens. The word of God also testifies that only this one time would he destroy all flesh with a flood on the entire earth. You can beat around the bush all you want but Gods words are not going to change.

I personally don't believe the Bible is the "word of God". I don't necessarily believe there is a God at all. That being the case do you think I should be able to look at all the evidences out there and come to a determination that there was a global flood? What academic sources can I look into see those evidences? Is it going to be "science" vs Answers-in-Genesis-type sites? Are there non-religious scientific sources that make a solid case for a global flood?

[The Nehor]

I personally don't believe the Bible is the "word of God". I don't necessarily believe there is a God at all. That being the case do you think I should be able to look at all the evidences out there and come to a determination that there was a global flood? What academic sources can I look into see those evidences? Is it going to be "science" vs Answers-in-Genesis-type sites? Are there non-religious scientific sources that make a solid case for a global flood?

The scientific evidence for the global flood is at best pseudoscience and most of it is clueless idiots making things ups.

It wasnt local floods. The scriptures testify it as being global. You can distort it all you want but you cant change the words- they dont lie. Now of course you can discount Genesis, chalk up Moses as something else, or whatever but you only deceive yourself. The word of God testifies of the global flood that covered the entire earth and destroyed all the flesh from the land under the entire heavens. The word of God also testifies that only this one time would he destroy all flesh with a flood on the entire earth. You can beat around the bush all you want but Gods words are not going to change.

Sorry, no amen for that testimony. Your kind worry me. Not so much that you believe in a global flood. I doubt anyone ever went to hell for believing the story of Noah occurred in a specific way. I do believe people go to hell for being dogmatic. Again, not because they may believe something wrong but because they are so self-assured about it that they cut themselves off from further light and knowledge convinced they have all the answers. Using science deceptively is also a violation of the commandments about honesty and lying but that is a separate issue.

In the Book of Moses it clearly says that God would not call the floods upon the earth again. Now you can twist and turn and try to make it into one global flood all you want but the Word of God will not change. The Word of God testifies of it and do not lie.

See how stupid that kind of argument sounds? You sound like a King James fundamentalist whack job. There is a reason people look down on them and other Christians are embarrassed to be associated with them.

[jkwilliams]

Millions of places where thick uniform sediment is trapping and rapidly burying live animals turning them into a fossil graveyard? This I gotta see.

 

No one said anything like that. You are the one who is denying that sedimentation occurs in more-or-less uniform fashion and is one of many indicators for dating fossils.

[Rob Osborn]

I personally don't believe the Bible is the "word of God". I don't necessarily believe there is a God at all. That being the case do you think I should be able to look at all the evidences out there and come to a determination that there was a global flood? What academic sources can I look into see those evidences? Is it going to be "science" vs Answers-in-Genesis-type sites? Are there non-religious scientific sources that make a solid case for a global flood?

What can I say, if you want to open your eyes, the evidence is there.

[Rob Osborn]

The scientific evidence for the global flood is at best pseudoscience and most of it is clueless idiots making things ups.

Sorry, no amen for that testimony. Your kind worry me. Not so much that you believe in a global flood. I doubt anyone ever went to hell for believing the story of Noah occurred in a specific way. I do believe people go to hell for being dogmatic. Again, not because they may believe something wrong but because they are so self-assured about it that they cut themselves off from further light and knowledge convinced they have all the answers. Using science deceptively is also a violation of the commandments about honesty and lying but that is a separate issue.

In the Book of Moses it clearly says that God would not call the floods upon the earth again. Now you can twist and turn and try to make it into one global flood all you want but the Word of God will not change. The Word of God testifies of it and do not lie.

See how stupid that kind of argument sounds? You sound like a King James fundamentalist whack job. There is a reason people look down on them and other Christians are embarrassed to be associated with them.

Go ahead and mock. My beliefs however line up with scripture and teachings of the church.

[thesometimesaint]

After examining the evidence I am left with a greater belief in God.

 

Me too. But I don't believe we came to that destination by the same road.

[Rob Osborn]

No one said anything like that. You are the one who is denying that sedimentation occurs in more-or-less uniform fashion and is one of many indicators for dating fossils.

I am denying the notion that there are millions of places in the ocean whete animals are getting buried rapidly in sediment layers that are thick and relatively uniform.

[jkwilliams]

I am denying the notion that there are millions of places in the ocean whete animals are getting buried rapidly in sediment layers that are thick and relatively uniform.

And your point would be?

[thesometimesaint]

I personally don't believe the Bible is the "word of God". I don't necessarily believe there is a God at all. That being the case do you think I should be able to look at all the evidences out there and come to a determination that there was a global flood? What academic sources can I look into see those evidences? Is it going to be "science" vs Answers-in-Genesis-type sites? Are there non-religious scientific sources that make a solid case for a global flood?

 

A lot of religious scientists disbelieve in a global flood.

[thesometimesaint]

Go ahead and mock. My beliefs however line up with scripture and teachings of the church.

 

Only your interpretation does.

[The Nehor]

Go ahead and mock. My beliefs however line up with scripture and teachings of the church.

So do mine. Mine has the added bonus of a rough harmony with scientific knowledge and not in Harmony with the pseudoscientific rumblings of uneducated hacks.

I have no problem with people believing in a global flood. I do have a problem with people lying about the evidence to support the idea. It is dangerous. It is especially dangerous when taught to the young and impressionable who later find out the whole thing was based on lies. They may throw out more then the global flood when they do.

[jkwilliams]

So do mine. Mine has the added bonus of a rough harmony with scientific knowledge and not in Harmony with the pseudoscientific rumblings of uneducated hacks.

I have no problem with people believing in a global flood. I do have a problem with people lying about the evidence to support the idea. It is dangerous. It is especially dangerous when taught to the young and impressionable who later find out the whole thing was based on lies. They may throw out more then the global flood when they do.

 

Yep. I have to say I hadn't thought much about apologetics in favor of "flood geology," so I read up on the subject. To say I'm wholly unimpressed is a massive understatement. It's the total lack of honesty that is most striking, isn't it? I will never understand those who would lie or bend the truth to defend what they see as the truth.

[thesometimesaint]

Yep. I have to say I hadn't thought much about apologetics in favor of "flood geology," so I read up on the subject. To say I'm wholly unimpressed is a massive understatement. It's the total lack of honesty that is most striking, isn't it? I will never understand those who would lie or bend the truth to defend what they see as the truth.

 

I don't have much use for sectarian or secular lies.

[jkwilliams]

I don't have much use for sectarian or secular lies.

 

I don't have much use for lies, wherever they come from.

[Gray]

God also said that we should live by EVERY word that proceedeth forth from His mouth.  He said he flooded the earth.  God doesn't lie.  My faith is that God's word is true, and science just needs to figure out how He does things, "evidence" aside.

 

And the key in reason is that God said "Let us reason TOGETHER", not reason on your own.

When science starts taking the possibility of a miraculous God into their reasoning perhaps the science vs. religion debate might finally end.

 

When did God say any of these things word for word? All we have is the spiritual messages as interpreted by people just as fallible as we are. God didn't say he flooded the earth. Some anonymous writers said that it happened. It is up to us as intelligent agents with the capacity for moral reasoning to discover what it all means. 

[jkwilliams]

When did God say any of these things word for word? All we have is the spiritual messages as interpreted by people just as fallible as we are. God didn't say he flooded the earth. Some anonymous writers said that it happened. It is up to us as intelligent agents with the capacity for moral reasoning to discover what it all means. 

 

One thing I like about the LDS church is its acknowledgement that scripture is transmitted by fallible humans. Thus, the Bible is the word of God so far as it is translated correctly, and the Book of Mormon is the "most correct" book rather than being "correct" in every respect.

 

Those who insist that God's word is some immutable, infallible certainty that must be read literally are missing the power of the Word to change lives. That God chooses to speak to us imperfect humans through other imperfect humans ought to fill us with gratitude, not fear. 

[Rob Osborn]

I pray you all find the truth. I will continue to teach the young and imoressionabke Gods truths and hope for a day when they rise up in truth and defeat the lies of men.

[jkwilliams]

I pray you all find the truth. I will continue to teach the young and imoressionabke Gods truths and hope for a day when they rise up in truth and defeat the lies of men.

 

I will continue to stand up to groups who use lies, distortions, and pseudoscience to prop up their narrow interpretation of scripture.

[Brian 2.0]

A lot of religious scientists disbelieve in a global flood.

That's readily apparent. I was curious if there were non-religious scientists that believe in a global flood.

[jkwilliams]

That's readily apparent. I was curious if there were non-religious scientists that believe in a global flood.

 

I'd like to meet someone like that. If nothing else, I'm sure he or she would have a heck of a story to tell.

[thesometimesaint]

One thing I like about the LDS church is its acknowledgement that scripture is transmitted by fallible humans. Thus, the Bible is the word of God so far as it is translated correctly, and the Book of Mormon is the "most correct" book rather than being "correct" in every respect.

 

Those who insist that God's word is some immutable, infallible certainty that must be read literally are missing the power of the Word to change lives. That God chooses to speak to us imperfect humans through other imperfect humans ought to fill us with gratitude, not fear. 

 

Agreed.