Stone holm Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Individuals are free to marry whom they choose. If members go into a marriage hardly knowing each other believing that their marriage will work just because they're church members, the failure is all on them, not the church. That tends to be slightly more true today, than it used to be. It used to be that there was incredible pressure placed on young women and returned missionaries to get married. One of my sons indicated that all of the returned missionaries who succumbed to the pressure that he went to college with, eventually got divorced. Nearly all those were Temple marriages. While I have not noticed a lot of divorces in our Ward, we do have a lot of active members who are on their 2nd or 3rd marriages with those being multiple because of divorce rather than death.
NEDRA Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I agree there was pressure and continues to be, even though on a smaller scale. The fact is, though, people still have their agency to make decisions. There may be strong suggestions, but nobody is *forcing* anyone to get married.Edited for typo. Edited January 31, 2014 by NEDRA 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Marriage in its ideal state is a wonderful thing. But I think there is no perfect marriage. In its quest for perfect marriages, I believe the LDS Church sets unrealistic expectations for both spouses. As a result, one or both spouses are likely to feel robbed when their marriage does not fit the blissful vision of happiness the Church raised them to expect. While this is by no means the only factor leading to LDS divorces, can't we at least agree that setting unrealistic expectations is at least partly to blame? Correction: the word "Every" in the title heading should be "Ever" There is the story of the young couple being married in the Temple by a GA. He told them they were at the end of their problems. Six months later that young couple came to that same GA in tears. Crying they said. "You said we were at the end of our problems". The GA put on a serious face and said. "I didn't say which end". I've been happily married now for going on 42 years to the same woman. We're hardly perfect. There are some things we just will not agree on in this life. We're just two very different people from very different families and backgrounds trying to make our marriage work. So far it has worked because we work at it. Edited January 31, 2014 by thesometimesaint 1
BlueDreams Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Traditionally in the Utah/LDS culture there have been some attitudes that may be contributing factors in some strained marriages, imo. The concepts of get married young, short engagements, have children early and often, to name a few. Yes I am well aware of cultural attitudes. I'm single, in UT, and turning 26 (enough said). But I was thinking specifically institutionally or at least more legitimate and central.....something in the actual teachings.... which is what I got from the intro by talking about the church. If he said LDS/Utah culture can play into divorce or unhappy marriages, I'd whole-heartedly agree. But he didn't. I can't think of one specific teaching (not cultural attitudes) that would increase the likelihood of divorce. Add on: and even culturally i've never gotten the picture that marriage was a bed of roses. But I'm an odd mormon, maybe I wasn't listening well enough. With luv,BD Edited February 1, 2014 by BlueDreams
rpn Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Divorce might be the end result if one of the spouses decides to no longer believe in the church and leaves it.This is such a tragedy? And a real example of the mote problem. A spouse's choice not to believe is not one of the doctrinally sanctioned reasons for divorce. How could any faithful member think that they are entitled to break their marriage covenants because another is no longer a believing member (or because the other has broken his/hers)? It seems so ironic that any could do that and see themselves as the righteous one. There is no question that mixed faith marriages under these circumstances can be difficult, and the sorrow of all the unknown eternal implications can be overwhelming (even if the scriptures promise that the believing spouse can sanctify the unbelieving ones, which they do). But honoring agency is critical to the work of God and learning to do that as mortals has great potential to stretch our capacity to serve Him. (Mind you, if adultery or abuse is at issue --- that may, when apostasy is not an acceptable reason.) 1
Stone holm Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Yes I am well aware of cultural attitudes. I'm single, in UT, and turning 26 (enough said). But I was thinking specifically institutionally or at least more legitimate and central.....something in the actual teachings.... which is what I got from the intro by talking about the church. If he said LDS/Utah culture can play into divorce or unhappy marriages, I'd whole-heartedly agree. But he didn't. I can't think of one specific teaching (not cultural attitudes) that would increase the likelihood of divorce. Add on: and even culturally i've never gotten the picture that marriage was a bed of roses. But I'm an odd mormon, maybe I wasn't listening well enough. With luv,BDIn the end the single undoubted cause of divorce is marriage, given our propensity to get married its a wonder our divorce rate isn't out there with the Hubbel Telescope.
normswright Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 From an LDS cultural standpoint, I think there have been several cases when a particularly time-demanding calling has led to "neglect" of home matters in a way that causes stress on a marriage. It is incumbent on us to ensure that our marriage gets the attention it needs despite our other time pressures. If a Church calling is causing conflict in that way, it would be wise to share that with those to whom we report. 2
Buzzard Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 This is such a tragedy? And a real example of the mote problem. A spouse's choice not to believe is not one of the doctrinally sanctioned reasons for divorce. How could any faithful member think that they are entitled to break their marriage covenants because another is no longer a believing member (or because the other has broken his/hers)? It seems so ironic that any could do that and see themselves as the righteous one. There is no question that mixed faith marriages under these circumstances can be difficult, and the sorrow of all the unknown eternal implications can be overwhelming (even if the scriptures promise that the believing spouse can sanctify the unbelieving ones, which they do). But honoring agency is critical to the work of God and learning to do that as mortals has great potential to stretch our capacity to serve Him. (Mind you, if adultery or abuse is at issue --- that may, when apostasy is not an acceptable reason.)That might be true if marriage occurred within a vacuum. But let's say the apostate spouse want's the kids to come to his/her new church, or go fishing on Sunday when the family always attended church before, or wants the family to watch anti-LDS videos, or any of dozens of scenarios, it's going to change that marriage, and not for the good. In a perfect world, the marriage might survive, and some do. But for one of the partners to change the rules of the game like that is going to inevitably lead to conflict.And to be fair, it probably happens a lot when one spouse joins the LDS church and suddenly lazy Sundays on the couch are replaced by a flurry of church meetings and disapproval when the non-member spouse wants to spend the day on a picnic down by the river, including the obligatory six-pack of mild malted beverages. 1
Stone holm Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 That might be true if marriage occurred within a vacuum. But let's say the apostate spouse want's the kids to come to his/her new church, or go fishing on Sunday when the family always attended church before, or wants the family to watch anti-LDS videos, or any of dozens of scenarios, it's going to change that marriage, and not for the good. In a perfect world, the marriage might survive, and some do. But for one of the partners to change the rules of the game like that is going to inevitably lead to conflict.And to be fair, it probably happens a lot when one spouse joins the LDS church and suddenly lazy Sundays on the couch are replaced by a flurry of church meetings and disapproval when the non-member spouse wants to spend the day on a picnic down by the river, including the obligatory six-pack of mild malted beverages.To be honest I don't think I have ever witnessed that scenario, usually it's more like the pious spouse hectoring the non pious spouse till he or she walks, and then they can't understand what happened. At that point I tend as a hometeacher to sigh and shake my head.
Buzzard Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 To be honest I don't think I have ever witnessed that scenario, usually it's more like the pious spouse hectoring the non pious spouse till he or she walks, and then they can't understand what happened. At that point I tend as a hometeacher to sigh and shake my head.If the spouses were of differing levels of piousness from the get go, I agree. But when one of the partners goes less active after years of marriage, the still active spouse would feel like the rules of the game have been changed at halftime. To want the rules back the way they were before may not be realistic, and may lead to the now less active spouse leaving, but the OP asked if that is the fault of the church. I have seen it where the partners have overcome this issue, but the fact that not are are able to does not implicate the church.
Duncan Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 If the spouses were of differing levels of piousness from the get go, I agree. But when one of the partners goes less active after years of marriage, the still active spouse would feel like the rules of the game have been changed at halftime. To want the rules back the way they were before may not be realistic, and may lead to the now less active spouse leaving, but the OP asked if that is the fault of the church. I have seen it where the partners have overcome this issue, but the fact that not are are able to does not implicate the church. some feel that the Church gave them the gun to shoot themselves in the foot or head or whatever!
Stone holm Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 This whole thing works like achievements in life, if you accomplished something positive it is because of The Lord, if you are a failure in life it's your own fault. Same is true of Temple marriage, if it works it is the blessing from The Lord through the Church, if it doesn't its one or both spouses fault. No room for it working in spite of the Church, or not working because of the Church. That is how this type of dialogue always rolls. 1
KevinG Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 The church gets some of the credit for happy marriages. It bears none of the blame for unhappy marriages. Should the Fire Marshall be blamed for the damage an arsonist causes? Should the Teacher be blamed for the student who fails to study? Should Weight Watchers be blamed for obesity? 2
KevinG Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Can the Church be blamed for requiring too much time in a calling? “The question is sometimes asked by younger priesthood holders, ‘Where do I place my greatest priorities—to the Church, to my family, or to my profession?’ I have answered that question by emphasizing that heads of families have four major responsibilities. Certainly the first is to the home and family. There should be no question about this. A man may succeed in business or his Church calling, but if he fails in his home he will face eternity in disappointment. … Home is the place where the Lord intended a father’s greatest influence to be felt” (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 509–10). Can the Church be blamed for fissures in a marriage due to differences in belief? "In order to achieve this love in our marriage, we must give the energy of our heart to loving our spouse, regardless of how well they meet our expectations. This does not mean that we should desire or expect any less from our spouse, but that we should give our love freely no matter what point they are at on their personal road of progress." - Anonymous LDS author from an article in the Ensign “The words none else eliminate everyone and everything. The spouse then becomes preeminent in the life of the husband or wife, and neither social life nor occupational life nor political life nor any other interest nor person nor thing shall ever take precedence over the companion spouse” (Spencer W. Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle [1972], 143). Does the Church justify or condone divorce for any reason? Divorce from LDS.org "When men and women marry, they make solemn covenants with each other and with God. Every effort should be made to keep these covenants and preserve marriage. When divorce occurs, individuals have the obligation to forgive rather than to condemn, to lift and to help" 1
KevinG Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 This whole thing works like achievements in life, if you accomplished something positive it is because of The Lord, if you are a failure in life it's your own fault. Same is true of Temple marriage, if it works it is the blessing from The Lord through the Church, if it doesn't its one or both spouses fault. No room for it working in spite of the Church, or not working because of the Church. That is how this type of dialogue always rolls. A more accurate rendition according to the doctrines and teachings of the church would be... We all fail from time to time because we are mortal. Sometimes its our fault, sometimes it is because of mortality,situation or error. Following the revelations and doctrines of God will give us a better chance at success in the things that matter, but in the end we all fall short and the atonement of Jesus Christ will make up for our shortcomings in the eternities. Membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints promises work, opposition and eternal blessings predicated on obedience to eternal principles. It does not promise an error or blame free mortality. Perhaps this is why those who place the most unrealistic expectations on the outcomes of faith based decisions are often those who are the most vocal and bitter opponents when they leave their former faith.
Stone holm Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 A more accurate rendition according to the doctrines and teachings of the church would be... We all fail from time to time because we are mortal. Sometimes its our fault, sometimes it is because of mortality,situation or error. Following the revelations and doctrines of God will give us a better chance at success in the things that matter, but in the end we all fall short and the atonement of Jesus Christ will make up for our shortcomings in the eternities. Membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints promises work, opposition and eternal blessings predicated on obedience to eternal principles. It does not promise an error or blame free mortality. Perhaps this is why those who place the most unrealistic expectations on the outcomes of faith based decisions are often those who are the most vocal and bitter opponents when they leave their former faith.Quite possibly. Although I have rarely heard the concept of expect little and you won't be disappointed applied to the Church.
KevinG Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Quite possibly. Although I have rarely heard the concept of expect little and you won't be disappointed applied to the Church. It would be folly to expect perfection in mortality. Even among the best of Saints. Look up Joseph Smith's comments on the cloak of charity. They are very good.
Lightbearer Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Marriage in its ideal state is a wonderful thing. But I think there is no perfect marriage. In its quest for perfect marriages, I believe the LDS Church sets unrealistic expectations for both spouses. As a result, one or both spouses are likely to feel robbed when their marriage does not fit the blissful vision of happiness the Church raised them to expect. While this is by no means the only factor leading to LDS divorces, can't we at least agree that setting unrealistic expectations is at least partly to blame?NO, never. I believe if both parties live the Gospel of Jesus Christ that there is no excuse for divorce. Because if we live the teachings of the Church we will love our spouses as ourselves and their happiness will be the foremost thing in our minds. Satan is the main instigator of divorce and it is usually selfishness on the part of one or both partners that is the leading cause.
Stone holm Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 NO, never. I believe if both parties live the Gospel of Jesus Christ that there is no excuse for divorce. Because if we live the teachings of the Church we will love our spouses as ourselves and their happiness will be the foremost thing in our minds. Satan is the main instigator of divorce and it is usually selfishness on the part of one or both partners that is the leading cause.And if all men were angels we wouldn't need government. Very fine concept, which is basically meaningless in the real world. Marriage relationships can and do crack under stress, occasionally religion can provide the fatal stress.
Damien the Leper Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 The idea that the LDS church has any kind of influence on the integrity of a marriage is silly. In fact, the church has place other than as a mutual interest. Christ and charity and love should be the center and no church institution is synonymous with those central features.
Lightbearer Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 And if all men were angels we wouldn't need government. Very fine concept, which is basically meaningless in the real world. Marriage relationships can and do crack under stress, occasionally religion can provide the fatal stress.So you think the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is basically meaningless in the real world? You cannot lay the sins of men and their own lack of love at the door of the Lord's true Church. I have never seen a stress that was caused by the true Church if both parties really love the Lord and each other. Now if one chooses to follow the truth and the other apostatizes from than truth then stress will result, but is the stress caused by the Church or the apostasy of the disaffected party? Sort of like saying Satan's being cast out of heaven was God's fault!
knowone Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 Marriage in its ideal state is a wonderful thing. But I think there is no perfect marriage. In its quest for perfect marriages, I believe the LDS Church sets unrealistic expectations for both spouses. As a result, one or both spouses are likely to feel robbed when their marriage does not fit the blissful vision of happiness the Church raised them to expect. While this is by no means the only factor leading to LDS divorces, can't we at least agree that setting unrealistic expectations is at least partly to blame? Correction: the word "Every" in the title heading should be "Ever" thats a hard question for me to answer. i can see both sides. for example there is a book about preparing to go to the temple that bishops & branch presidents specifically give to couples preparing for marriage. it has very good common sense information in it. in most lds marriages, that ive witnessed collapse, i ccould find the reason & it has never been the lds church. on the other hand, i do know that some leaders arent up to the task of giving out good information or having that gift of discernment. not everybody is apt to be a judge in israel or to act as wise as solomen. men are fallible. the church is not. i guess thats always the answer.
Stone holm Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 So you think the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is basically meaningless in the real world? You cannot lay the sins of men and their own lack of love at the door of the Lord's true Church. I have never seen a stress that was caused by the true Church if both parties really love the Lord and each other. Now if one chooses to follow the truth and the other apostatizes from than truth then stress will result, but is the stress caused by the Church or the apostasy of the disaffected party? Sort of like saying Satan's being cast out of heaven was God's fault!No didn't say that, but the Church can provide meaning and can provide stress.
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