DonBradley Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Hi All, Prophecy is not always fulfilled merely by God shuffling the deck in its favor. It appears that sometimes it's fulfilled at least in part because people purposely try to fulfill it. For instance, didn't the early saints try to fulfill the prophecies about the building of the New Jerusalem, and don't we try to fulfill prophecies of the gospel being taken to every nation? I'm looking for examples of this, where people in the Bible, in Restoration scripture, or in church history have set out to fulfill prophecy. What can you think of? Don 1
volgadon Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Hi All, Prophecy is not always fulfilled merely by God shuffling the deck in its favor. It appears that sometimes it's fulfilled at least in part because people purposely try to fulfill it. For instance, didn't the early saints try to fulfill the prophecies about the building of the New Jerusalem, and don't we try to fulfill prophecies of the gospel being taken to every nation? I'm looking for examples of this, where people in the Bible, in Restoration scripture, or in church history have set out to fulfill prophecy. What can you think of? Don Orson Hyde's 1840 mission to Palestine. 1
Coreyb Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Christs whole ministry And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Edited January 27, 2014 by Coreyb 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Christs whole ministry And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Excellent example, and Jesus' first public act: That particular scripture (which may have been the Jewish haftara for that sabbath) is actually the declaration of the actual Jewish Jubilee Year, which was the year in which Jesus began his ministry. Later Jesus recounts the OT prophecies which he has fulfilled.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Hi All, Prophecy is not always fulfilled merely by God shuffling the deck in its favor. It appears that sometimes it's fulfilled at least in part because people purposely try to fulfill it. For instance, didn't the early saints try to fulfill the prophecies about the building of the New Jerusalem, and don't we try to fulfill prophecies of the gospel being taken to every nation? I'm looking for examples of this, where people in the Bible, in Restoration scripture, or in church history have set out to fulfill prophecy. What can you think of? DonThere is always the question of self-fulfilling prophecy, as well as prophecy generated after the fact (ex eventu). The question dogs any suggested fulfillment, such as the establishment of the State of Israel, and the subsequent conquest by the Israeli Army of the Old City of Jerusalem. As extraordinary as such events are, there is always the possibility of humans finding a way to make the ancient predictions come to pass. On the other hand, we have a prophet such as Jonah, who tries to escape the making of a prophecy, and then becomes petulant about not having his prophecy come true (because Nineveh repented). According to the late David Noel Freedman, the OT is actually quite frank about prophetic failures. In other words, the prophecies made seem dependable, since even the failures are maintained in the text. See Freedman, Unity of the Hebrew Bible (Univ of Michigan, 1991), 53. There are other cases in which fulfillment seems unlikely, yet we know that they took place with such precision that it is hard to justify the notion that they are purely happenstantial. Freedman calls attention to one such odd sychronism, the destruction twice of Jerusalem & Temple on the same day and month, separated by around 5 centuries, followed in each case by major exile of the Jewish people. Freedman, Unity, 89-90. Another series of very odd synchronisms (unknown to Joseph and his cogeners) accompanying the rise of the LDS Restoration, e.g., taking the plates from the Hill convenient to Manchester precisely on the Jewish New Year (1 Tishrei), which was also Autumnal Equinox and New Moon, and at the end of a Jewish Sabbatical Year; Elijah (as expected by Jewish tradition) returning at Passover to the Kirtland Temple, during the dedication; the great Mormon exodus under Brigham Young in a Jewish Jubilee Year, while consciously reenacting Jewish Exodus themes (D&C 136) -- just as Clan Lehi specifically reenacts that same Jewish Exodus in the Book of Mormon. Jan Shipps had a good deal to say about such reenactments in her Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition (1985), which she sees as the Mormon recapitulation in “sacred time” of Old and New Testament events in a 19th century context. Edited January 27, 2014 by Robert F. Smith 1
drums12 Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Would Martin Harris' taking copies of Book of Mormon characters to Professor Anthon possibly be considered this? Or did Martin only consider it in light of Isaiah after the fact?
CV75 Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Hi All, Prophecy is not always fulfilled merely by God shuffling the deck in its favor. It appears that sometimes it's fulfilled at least in part because people purposely try to fulfill it. For instance, didn't the early saints try to fulfill the prophecies about the building of the New Jerusalem, and don't we try to fulfill prophecies of the gospel being taken to every nation? I'm looking for examples of this, where people in the Bible, in Restoration scripture, or in church history have set out to fulfill prophecy. What can you think of? DonI think any prophecy that has a “Prepare ye…” component to it means that the Lord expects the faithful to bring about its fulfilment—He is speaking to those who can be His hands, who can sustain His servants, etc. For example, the Son of God did come to the Earth in the meridian of time (Isa. 40: 3), while Alma 9: 28 seems to be in an ongoing state of fulfillment for the faithful. D&C contains more yet-to-be fulfilled “prepare ye” prophecies, and this seems to be the motivation for how our top quorums exercise the keys, as the spirit of these prophecies works within them day to day. Since many of these prophecies speak of preparing the way for the Lord’s way, path, promises, etc., I think He definitely has something specific in mind and so I take it as an invitation to join Him. I also think in His mercy, some things may occur at a pace we set. For example, D&C 38: 33 But I have often viewed the scriptural prophecies as a game plan or instructions for how to bring to pass the Lord’s prophecies, if nothing else for one’s own salvation and then expand his efforts from there.
cinepro Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Hi All, Prophecy is not always fulfilled merely by God shuffling the deck in its favor. It appears that sometimes it's fulfilled at least in part because people purposely try to fulfill it. For instance, didn't the early saints try to fulfill the prophecies about the building of the New Jerusalem, and don't we try to fulfill prophecies of the gospel being taken to every nation? I'm looking for examples of this, where people in the Bible, in Restoration scripture, or in church history have set out to fulfill prophecy. What can you think of? Don My absolute favorite is the dedication of the Far West Temple site to fulfill D&C 118.
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Heck you can make any prophecy come true with the proper "interpretation". Nietzsche saw that clearly. We see pictures in clouds and read tea leaves to tell the future, and bend any event to be seen the way we want it to be seen. That's what humans do: organize matter unorganized, creating whatever reality suits their purposes.
DonBradley Posted January 29, 2014 Author Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks, everyone! This has been very useful. I think it's particularly telling that Jesus sometimes intentionally tried to fulfill prophecy, and that the earliest Mormons did so as well. I'm specifically looking at the possibility that Joseph intended to fulfill Isaiah 29 by sending the characters to "the learned." I think there's good evidence favoring this. And identifying precedent for this strengthens the case. Don
CV75 Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks, everyone! This has been very useful. I think it's particularly telling that Jesus sometimes intentionally tried to fulfill prophecy, and that the earliest Mormons did so as well. I'm specifically looking at the possibility that Joseph intended to fulfill Isaiah 29 by sending the characters to "the learned." I think there's good evidence favoring this. And identifying precedent for this strengthens the case. DonIt would be interesting to see the timing and the connection between Joseph coming across Isaiah 29, translating 2 Nephi 27, and having Professor Anthon see the characters? Maybe he was trying to fulfill 2 Nephi 27 instead!
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