Book Of Mormon And Politics

[changed]

.... righteousness and corruption...

Corruption, secret combinations etc. is what mainly bothers me right now about our current gov... at least it seems like there is corruption going on - on both sides of the fense. 

not the BoM but:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:79 - 80)

79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in abondage one to another.

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the bshedding of blood.

so we should all be constitutionalists? 

Edited January 11, 2014 by changed

[JarMan]

One of my favorite examples of politics not being mixed with religion was Alma, who was the chief judge AND the high priest over the church. When he saw how wicked the people were he didn't use his secular power to try to bring them in line. Instead, he resigned his chief judge-ship and concentrated on his role as high priest. This tells me that if we want to heal what's wrong with our community/country/world, the ultimate answer is to minister to others and try to change peoples' hearts.

[Avatar4321]

Interesting topic. Reading the thread I immediately began thinking about the book of Helaman. I believe our times parallel that book.

 

What I see from that book is that the solution for politics and government being corrupt and taken over by robbers is by preaching and by living the Gospel. It was in this time 2-3 generations that we saw some of the most powerful preachers in the Book of Mormon. We saw Nephi and Lehi who preached with such power that they convinced almost all the Lamanites and dissenting Nephites to return to the Lord. We saw groups of people who were opposed to the Gospel for over 500 years almost all turned to the Lord within a short deal of time.

 

And that is the solution to our political problems. We need to preach with power and convert the people to Christ. It's our calling and our responsibility. And if we have faith, and live the Gospel o the best of our abilities, making D&C 121 a part of our life, we will see many people return to the Lord.

[Avatar4321]

I would also state that King Noah and his priests are a great example of corrupt government in practice. They burdened the people with taxes to build what many would call public works, not really for the public sake, but for their own. They silenced dissent. They glutted themselves on the backs of the people. They treated the people as if the people were there to serve them instead of the other way around.

[morgan.deane]

I've written about the BoM war chapters as a catalyst for imperialism here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/11/imperial-patriots-book-of-mormon-war.html  

 

"A careful reading of the war chapters suggests that Moroni initiated a series of actions that inaugurated an imperial period within the book, led to their eventual destruction as a political entity, and can be used by modern readers to justify an aggressive and interventionist American foreign policy. Examining the unintended consequences suggests a need for added caution in considering the merits of military action. A relatively short time before Moroni assumed military command, King Benjamin served as a “yeoman” ruler who boasted that he farmed with his own hand.[5] The Nephites ruled a relatively small area around their capital and had a single army. Yet a generation later, the Nephite people led by Moroni preemptively seized land during a time of peace, and preemptively sought to attack an enemy leader.  Moroni changed their armor and fortifications that made their military more effective in the short term, but more expensive to maintain in the long run. The Nephites also fielded multiple armies capable of operating in different theatres with Moroni as the chief captain. The necessary tax base to fund the armor and fortifications required more extensive territory, protection of trade routes and a larger military; these actions led to deeper debts and an overextension of their military. Even though the Nephite armies explicitly fought under a banner of liberty, they faced continued political unrest, increasing social stratification, oppression of the poor, and a growing insurgency they had trouble subduing.

 

Battlefield losses often inspire great soul searching and political, military, and cultural reform, while winning a war brings a whole new set of problems.  From Rome to Britain, to American policy after World War II, the burden of hegemonic leadership is often assumed vigorously after outstanding military victory, but often unravels from within due to the demands of money and men and a slow decay of society’s ability, and desire, to furnish them.  The Book of Mormon is a uniquely American text,[6] from a uniquely American religion that informs the voting habits of millions of Americans.  Thus a study of the war chapters suggests that Moroni initiated a series of actions that inaugurated an imperial period within the book, and can be used to justify an aggressive and interventionist American foreign policy, while at the same time shows a transformation that has been missed by military historians."

 

I've written about Gideon's spiritual and martial legacy (and this legacy is what got me thinking about the above points.)  I've submitted this article to the Interpreter but here is the conclusion and restatement of the thesis: 

 

"Gideon left a spiritual heritage that is seen through numerous events in the Book of Mormon.  Their church also had to be defended by the military. Early in their history the Nephties faced subjugation, as a spiritual and military leader Gideon had a lasting influence on both. The government executed or tried people like Nehor and Korihor, with Gideon or the people of Gideon as the catalyst.  The Amlicite War had a lasting impact on Moroni’s tactics including his rallying the vote, pursuing usurpers, preemptive war, and the use of more brutal tactics. The decreasing positive references towards the Lamanites, and the increased brutality of warfare represented by attacking during a river crossing, and the possibly unjust execution of Nehor represent increased militarization of the Nephites."

 

And I discussed pre-emptive warfare in the BoM here: http://gregkofford.com/products/war-and-peace-in-our-time

 

You can see the preliminary argument here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2010/04/book-of-mormon-is-not-relevant-for-our.html

 

 

In my book that is coming out (someday) from Greg Kofford books I also compared the Benjamin and Noah using the Chinese concepts of the Heaven's Mandate and the Bad Emperor.  I looked at dynastic politics and the underlying causes of warfare warfare in the Jaredite conflict. I also discussed the use of the term robber in late and sub Roman Europe to see how the term described power relationships and ethnic differences.   

 

So needless to say I think the BoM has a great deal to say about politics if you dig deep enough to find it.  I went at politics through military history or what Clausewitz called, "politics by other means."  I look forward to seeing more ideas on here. Thanks for the question. 

Edited January 13, 2014 by morgan.deane

[cdowis]

Interesting topic. Reading the thread I immediately began thinking about the book of Helaman. I believe our times parallel that book.

 

 

I'm glad that someone picked up on that.  When I read Helaman, one word comes to mind -- chaos, a government out of control.  We read how judges made decisions based on bribes and political influence, and defying the established law.  And the judges were not punished for their actions, because it was "too late" to do anything about their decisions, for example, to execute the prophets. 

 

The society was lawless and any  justice that did exist was corrupted by power and money.  It was under this circumstance that the Lord virtually destroyed them.

Edited January 13, 2014 by cdowis

[cdowis]

I looked at Mosiah 11 and King Noah and found some interesting insights into the politics of this unrighteous king:

 

1. His father was righteous, but after his death, he replaced the priests with his own people

 

2. Had a tax rate of 20% built magnificent buildings, etc

 

3. "they also became idolatrous, because they were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them."  -- used flattering words (rhetoric) to change the morality of the people

 

4. "he planted vineyards round about in the land; and he built wine-presses, and made wine in abundance; and therefore he became a wine-bibber, and also his people."

He controlled the people by having them develop a dependence on him to supply them with what they wanted.

[Coreyb]

I'm glad that someone picked up on that.  When I read Helaman, one word comes to mind -- chaos, a government out of control.  We read how judges made decisions based on bribes and political influence, and defying the established law.  And the judges were not punished for their actions, because it was "too late" to do anything about their decisions, for example, to execute the prophets. 

 

The society was lawless and any  justice that did exist was corrupted by power and money.  It was under this circumstance that the Lord virtually destroyed them.

see Ezra Bensons "prophecy" that the events preceding Christ's advent in America will be mirrored by events preceding His second Advent.

 

  “the record of the Nephite history just prior to the Savior’s visit reveals many parallels to our own day as we anticipate the Savior’s second coming” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1987, 3; or Ensign, May 1987, 4).

Edited January 19, 2014 by Coreyb

[thesometimesaint]

I would also state that King Noah and his priests are a great example of corrupt government in practice. They burdened the people with taxes to build what many would call public works, not really for the public sake, but for their own. They silenced dissent. They glutted themselves on the backs of the people. They treated the people as if the people were there to serve them instead of the other way around.

 

Doesn't sound like public works to me. Sounds more like making the public work for private gains.

[Avatar4321]

Doesn't sound like public works to me. Sounds more like making the public work for private gains.

 

That's the problem with many public works initiatives. Quite often they are being used to benefit the politicians pocketbook.

[BCSpace]

Now let's stay away from current events,

 

That defeats the purpose of the Book of Mormon.  The doctrine is that the Book of Mormon was written for us by prophets who saw our day and we are to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, etc.

 

 

The type of government does matter.

 

Agreed.  For instance the BoM distinguishes between having kings and some sort of democracy.

 

What should also be pointed out is the absence of teaching on the reliance on government for individual welfare, an exception (non teaching) being the government stepping in in times of war or other oppression, as well as freedom of thought and some interesting incidences of freedom of expression (or not).  Such had great bearing on their politics.

[The Nehor]

Doesn't sound like public works to me. Sounds more like making the public work for private gains.

 

Yeah, this is something of a scriptural theme. You find it in the Book of Mormon and Solomon alienated the people working them hard to build his impressive house.

 

I'm glad that someone picked up on that.  When I read Helaman, one word comes to mind -- chaos, a government out of control.  We read how judges made decisions based on bribes and political influence, and defying the established law.  And the judges were not punished for their actions, because it was "too late" to do anything about their decisions, for example, to execute the prophets. 

 

The society was lawless and any  justice that did exist was corrupted by power and money.  It was under this circumstance that the Lord virtually destroyed them.

 

That is the disadvantage of democracy. It is easy to sink it. Complaining about politicians is a favored passtime but politicians come from the people and are selected by them. Their being rotten means we have a large pool of rotten people to choose from and a lot of rotten people willing to vote for them. Complaints about corruption are everywhere. They are usually bound up in words of indignant morality but too much of it is actually jealousy and wanting that kind of position/life for themselves. This is why the kingmen often overwhelm the freemen. It is not the system the wicked hate; it is that they are not in charge and on the top of the heap.

[cdowis]

Mosiah 10:19

 

this people should be governed by their own voices -- yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction.

[thesometimesaint]

The Nephites were never anywhere close to what we'd call a democracy. They had good kings and bad kings with a few good judges and bad judges mixed in.

[Vance]

The Nephites were never anywhere close to what we'd call a democracy. They had good kings and bad kings with a few good judges and bad judges mixed in.

One wonders about you and your reading prowess.

It is called "the voice of the people" and it is found fairly often.

Mosiah 7:9 And he said unto them: Behold, I am Limhi, the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff, who came up out of the land of Zarahemla to inherit this land, which was the land of their fathers, who was made a king by the voice of the people.

Mosiah 22:1 And now it came to pass that Ammon and king Limhi began to consult with the people how they should deliver themselves out of bondage; and even they did cause that all the people should gather themselves together; and this they did that they might have the voice of the people concerning the matter.

Mosiah 29:2 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: We are desirous that Aaron thy son should be our king and our ruler.

• • •

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

• • •

29 If your higher judges do not judge righteous judgments, ye shall cause that a small number of your lower judges should be gathered together, and they shall judge your higher judges, according to the voice of the people.

Alma 2:3 Now this was alarming to the people of the church, and also to all those who had not been drawn away after the persuasions of Amlici; for they knew that according to their law that such things must be established by the voice of the people.

4 Therefore, if it were possible that Amlici should gain the voice of the people, he, being a wicked man, would deprive them of their rights and privileges of the church; for it was his intent to destroy the church of God.

• • •

7 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came against Amlici, that he was not made king over the people.

Alma 4:16 And he selected a wise man who was among the elders of the church, and gave him power according to the voice of the people, that he might have power to enact laws according to the laws which had been given, and to put them in force according to the wickedness and the crimes of the people.

Alma 27:21 And it came to pass that the chief judge sent a proclamation throughout all the land, desiring the voice of the people concerning the admitting their brethren, who were the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi.

22 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

Alma 46:34 Now, Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people, therefore he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites, to establish and to exercise authority over them.

Alma 51:7 And it came to pass that this matter of their contention was settled by the voice of the people. And it came to pass that the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen, and Pahoran retained the judgment-seat, which caused much rejoicing among the brethren of Pahoran and also many of the people of liberty, who also put the king-men to silence, that they durst not oppose but were obliged to maintain the cause of freedom.

• • •

15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death.

16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people.

Hel. 1:5 Nevertheless, it came to pass that Pahoran was appointed by the voice of the people to be chief judge and a governor over the people of Nephi.

6 And it came to pass that Pacumeni, when he saw that he could not obtain the judgment-seat, he did unite with the voice of the people.

• • •

8 And it came to pass as he was about to do this, behold, he was taken, and was tried according to the voice of the people, and condemned unto death; for he had raised up in rebellion and sought to destroy the liberty of the people.

• • •

13 And now behold, Pacumeni was appointed, according to the voice of the people, to be a chief judge and a governor over the people, to reign in the stead of his brother Pahoran; and it was according to his right. And all this was done in the fortieth year of the reign of the judges; and it had an end.

Hel. 2:2 And it came to pass that Helaman, who was the son of Helaman, was appointed to fill the judgment-seat, by the voice of the people.

Hel. 5:2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

[thesometimesaint]

One wonders about you and your reading prowess.

It is called "the voice of the people" and it is found fairly often.

Mosiah 7:9 And he said unto them: Behold, I am Limhi, the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff, who came up out of the land of Zarahemla to inherit this land, which was the land of their fathers, who was made a king by the voice of the people.

Mosiah 22:1 And now it came to pass that Ammon and king Limhi began to consult with the people how they should deliver themselves out of bondage; and even they did cause that all the people should gather themselves together; and this they did that they might have the voice of the people concerning the matter.

Mosiah 29:2 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: We are desirous that Aaron thy son should be our king and our ruler.

• • •

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

• • •

29 If your higher judges do not judge righteous judgments, ye shall cause that a small number of your lower judges should be gathered together, and they shall judge your higher judges, according to the voice of the people.

Alma 2:3 Now this was alarming to the people of the church, and also to all those who had not been drawn away after the persuasions of Amlici; for they knew that according to their law that such things must be established by the voice of the people.

4 Therefore, if it were possible that Amlici should gain the voice of the people, he, being a wicked man, would deprive them of their rights and privileges of the church; for it was his intent to destroy the church of God.

• • •

7 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came against Amlici, that he was not made king over the people.

Alma 4:16 And he selected a wise man who was among the elders of the church, and gave him power according to the voice of the people, that he might have power to enact laws according to the laws which had been given, and to put them in force according to the wickedness and the crimes of the people.

Alma 27:21 And it came to pass that the chief judge sent a proclamation throughout all the land, desiring the voice of the people concerning the admitting their brethren, who were the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi.

22 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

Alma 46:34 Now, Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people, therefore he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites, to establish and to exercise authority over them.

Alma 51:7 And it came to pass that this matter of their contention was settled by the voice of the people. And it came to pass that the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen, and Pahoran retained the judgment-seat, which caused much rejoicing among the brethren of Pahoran and also many of the people of liberty, who also put the king-men to silence, that they durst not oppose but were obliged to maintain the cause of freedom.

• • •

15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death.

16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people.

Hel. 1:5 Nevertheless, it came to pass that Pahoran was appointed by the voice of the people to be chief judge and a governor over the people of Nephi.

6 And it came to pass that Pacumeni, when he saw that he could not obtain the judgment-seat, he did unite with the voice of the people.

• • •

8 And it came to pass as he was about to do this, behold, he was taken, and was tried according to the voice of the people, and condemned unto death; for he had raised up in rebellion and sought to destroy the liberty of the people.

• • •

13 And now behold, Pacumeni was appointed, according to the voice of the people, to be a chief judge and a governor over the people, to reign in the stead of his brother Pahoran; and it was according to his right. And all this was done in the fortieth year of the reign of the judges; and it had an end.

Hel. 2:2 And it came to pass that Helaman, who was the son of Helaman, was appointed to fill the judgment-seat, by the voice of the people.

Hel. 5:2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

 

The first thing we think of as a democracy is a vote by the people. Kingship's were handed down from father to son, as were judgeship's. There is no record of any plebiscite ever being conducted.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon,_Government_and_Legal_History_in_the

[wtrdog]

This is an awesome subject.  Just the other day I read this in Mosiah 29 and thought, "gee, we could really use this" in relation to the sad state of our Supreme Court.  In my opinion SCOTUS is one of the greatest failings of our Republic.  These partisan windbags being appointed for life is an epic fail.  The Constitution was not meant to be interpreted for the rest of us by clergy, the rest of us unworthy to have our own copy of the scriptures, dictated by 9 people selected by some agenda-driven president.  

 

 

27 And ^aif the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

 28 And now if ye have judges, and they do not ^ajudge you according to the law which has been given, ye can cause that they may be judged of a higher judge.

 29 If your higher judges do not judge righteous judgments, ye shall cause that a small number of your lower judges should be gathered together, and they shall judge your higher judges, according to the voice of the people.

 

I'll maybe post some more on this topic later.  From beginning to end the BOM is filled with politics, very complex political ideas. One thing that I take from the text though is that it's not physically possible for a righteous person to lead unrighteous people.  

[Anijen]

in relation to the sad state of our Supreme Court.  In my opinion SCOTUS is one of the greatest failings of our Republic.  These partisan windbags being appointed for life is an epic fail.  The Constitution was not meant to be interpreted for the rest of us by clergy, the rest of us unworthy to have our own copy of the scriptures, dictated by 9 people selected by some agenda-driven president.    

Emphasis mine. 

 

A careful study of many of the Supreme Courts decisions would show that many times it is not all partisan as you might think. The reason for the life long appointments was made for the very reason of trying to keep SCOTUS from being influenced. Further clarification: when you are appointed for life you do not feel your job is threatened because of any ruling you might make. Hence the life appointment. Madison included the Supreme Court in the Constitution (Article III), so it is hardly unconstitutional. Furthermore the life appointment was that the Judges could have discretionary votes without fear.  SCOTUS is the only court established by the Constitution. Yes individually each judge will vote how they interpret law and many cases coincides with the ideology of the President who appointed them, which to one might agree with a decision and another will not. 

Edited January 26, 2014 by Anijen

[thesometimesaint]

This is an awesome subject.  Just the other day I read this in Mosiah 29 and thought, "gee, we could really use this" in relation to the sad state of our Supreme Court.  In my opinion SCOTUS is one of the greatest failings of our Republic.  These partisan windbags being appointed for life is an epic fail.  The Constitution was not meant to be interpreted for the rest of us by clergy, the rest of us unworthy to have our own copy of the scriptures, dictated by 9 people selected by some agenda-driven president.  

 

 

I'll maybe post some more on this topic later.  From beginning to end the BOM is filled with politics, very complex political ideas. One thing that I take from the text though is that it's not physically possible for a righteous person to lead unrighteous people.  

 

Judicial review is essential in our form of government.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States