Misdefining "family"

[teddyaware]

Defining family is a hard one, when I first converted, I didn't have any family in the church, and felt very out-of-place, all the talks on "together forever", and people talking about their Mormon heritage always made me feel like I didn't belong there... Now I'm married and am one of the "perfect mormon families" with kids etc.  but I always try to be careful around single moms, or couples without kids etc. etc. I will say, that doing temple work helped me feel like I had a "real" family in those early years, so I will highly recommend temple work / family history work to those who feel like their family is incomplete  (and everyone's family at this point is incomplete when you think about it)

The worthy members who were deprived, through little or no fault of their own, of the blessings of a nuclear family in this life will enjoy those blessings in the hereafter. There is no need to feel left out unless they are ignorant of the facts. In that case, they need to be informed.

[Rob Osborn]

Defining family is a hard one, when I first converted, I didn't have any family in the church, and felt very out-of-place, all the talks on "together forever", and people talking about their Mormon heritage always made me feel like I didn't belong there... Now I'm married and am one of the "perfect mormon families" with kids etc.  but I always try to be careful around single moms, or couples without kids etc. etc. I will say, that doing temple work helped me feel like I had a "real" family in those early years, so I will highly recommend temple work / family history work to those who feel like their family is incomplete  (and everyone's family at this point is incomplete when you think about it)

I always refer to single parents raising kids as "families". I speak the same language with married male and female couples with no kids.

[Rob Osborn]

I found this,I thought it was interesting

“We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families” (Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71). http://mormon.org/faq/stand-on-homosexuality

[california boy]

If they are living the law of chastity then no reason they cant be baptized. You do have a problem though if they consider themselves a "couple" and live under the same roof. I wouldnt pass that lifestyle off as living the law of chastity. The child can be baptized regardless of his or her parent's sexual attraction. At no point though is the church going to recognize the gay couple and child as a "family".

So by repenting and to do so, have to live apart from each other, what happens to the child who has only know a life with two parents who she loves each deeply?

[Rob Osborn]

So by repenting and to do so, have to live apart from each other, what happens to the child who has only know a life with two parents who she loves each deeply?

She can still love each deeply. If the adults want church membership they must cut off entirely their intimate relationship. At that point they could still live under the same roof as long as they were no longer intimately connected as a couple.

[california boy]

She can still love each deeply. If the adults want church membership they must cut off entirely their intimate relationship. At that point they could still live under the same roof as long as they were no longer intimately connected as a couple.

So a gay couple can live together and be temple worthy as long as they are not intimate?  

[altersteve]

There is my family, consisting of my parents, my brother, and my sisters, as well as my extended family. Then there are several of my friends, who I consider to be as close as any of my family members, if not closer in some cases. One of my friends in particular is like a brother to me, and I'm sure God would accept that. We're not sealed to the same parents (he doesn't even believe in God anymore), but surely Heavenly Father considers him to be my family as much as I do.

 

Point is, if I love you, I think of you as part of my family. It's that simple for me.

Edited December 11, 2013 by altersteve

[changed]

There is my family, consisting of my parents, my brother, and my sisters, as well as my extended family. Then there are several of my friends, who I consider to be as close as any of my family members, if not closer in some cases. One of my friends in particular is like a brother to me, and I'm sure God would accept that. We're not sealed to the same parents (he doesn't even believe in God anymore), but surely Heavenly Father considers him to be my family as much as I do.

 

Point is, if I love you, I think of you as part of my family. It's that simple for me.

(New Testament | Matthew 12:47 - 50)

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother?  and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my amother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the awill of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my bbrother, and sister, and mother.

 

[stemelbow]

It shouldn't be news that LDS doctrine is that only heterosexually married couples attain exaltation.  That's the only sense I'm referring to (salvational) and am not implying other types of relationships won't exist in the kingdom of heaven.

 

I would however assert that the doctrinal implication is that there will be no homosexual relationships in any degree of glory.

 

Great.  Then we do agree other types of relationships will exist in the Kingdom of Heaven.  You had me confused there with no other types of relationships will exist. 

 

But now you have me wondering again.  No homosexual relationships will exist in any degree of glory.  huh?  How do you know that? 

[stemelbow]

There is my family, consisting of my parents, my brother, and my sisters, as well as my extended family. Then there are several of my friends, who I consider to be as close as any of my family members, if not closer in some cases. One of my friends in particular is like a brother to me, and I'm sure God would accept that. We're not sealed to the same parents (he doesn't even believe in God anymore), but surely Heavenly Father considers him to be my family as much as I do.

 

Point is, if I love you, I think of you as part of my family. It's that simple for me.

 

Good point.  I like it.  Also to note, Jesus said love everyone, so we might as well treat any old gathering of any of us as a gathering of family.  I don't know why we're being so uptight about how we define family--meaning two gay men with a child can't be considered a family. 

[thesometimesaint]

Sure.  But I assume we are talking about family in some sort of salvational sense.  For example, to enter the highest degree in the Celestial glory, one must be heterosexually married.  No other type of relationship is accepted.

 

Sure but is that couple the only definition of family?

[Rob Osborn]

So a gay couple can live together and be temple worthy as long as they are not intimate?

You would have to drop the "couple" part of the relationship. You would basiclly just have to be two friends- room mates and nothing else. You couldn't hold hands, couldn't lay in each others arm on the couch, etc.

[Rob Osborn]

Great.  Then we do agree other types of relationships will exist in the Kingdom of Heaven.  You had me confused there with no other types of relationships will exist. 

 

But now you have me wondering again.  No homosexual relationships will exist in any degree of glory.  huh?  How do you know that?

Homosexual relationships are sinful and sinful things wont be found in heaven. Thats equivalent to a non-married couple in heaven- not gonna happen. The only intimate relationships in heaven will be eternally married husbands and wives

[Rob Osborn]

Good point.  I like it.  Also to note, Jesus said love everyone, so we might as well treat any old gathering of any of us as a gathering of family.  I don't know why we're being so uptight about how we define family--meaning two gay men with a child can't be considered a family.

You can call it whatever you like, that is fine with me. But the church does not recognize that as a family. The church supports fully the family as has been long traditionally viewed. the church isnt going to define a gay couple as a family because it goes directly against every principle of the real family besides the fact that it is sinful.

[CV75]

So a gay couple can live together and be temple worthy as long as they are not intimate?

Regardless of what they actually practice in their level of intimacy, I think that by staking a claim to marriage, a gay couple affirms an idea that the Church does not support doctrinally. It’s one thing to believe an apostate doctrine and another to practice it. So I don’t think they would be allowed to join the Church or go to the temple.

I would think a gay person that believes in gay “marriage” would be allowed to join the Church if he abides all the requirements and is not in a same-sex “marriage.” I think instances of cohabitation would require review by his Church leaders approving the baptism.

As far as what the Church defines as a family, I think how it structures the membership and genealogy recods is an indicator, along with all the references that have been provided. But I think if missioanries were to knock on the door and teach a gay couple and their dependents, they would call it a family.

[David T]

Also, it appears as though being a Heavenly Mother in the eternites involves your divine spouse not allowing your spiritual children to talk to you or know anything about you. At least that appears to be the current doctrine of the church. Might as well be a single parent relationship, for all we're allowed to know.

And some Mormons wonder why people think we don't view women as equals.

Edited December 11, 2013 by David T

[Rob Osborn]

Sure but is that couple the only definition of family?

What do you think?

[stemelbow]

You can call it whatever you like, that is fine with me. But the church does not recognize that as a family. The church supports fully the family as has been long traditionally viewed. the church isnt going to define a gay couple as a family because it goes directly against every principle of the real family besides the fact that it is sinful.

 

I get it.  I just disagree with the Church again.  One of these days I'll face my own little disciplinary council perhaps. 

[stemelbow]

Also, it appears as though being a Heavenly Mother in the eternites involves your divine spouse not allowing your spiritual children to talk to you or know anything about you. At least that appears to be the current doctrine of the church.

And some Mormons wonder why people think we don't view women as equals.

 

Ouch.  Luckily our mortal life is but a drop in the bucket of eternity.  Hopefully she's more on board with this arrangement then we think. 

[stemelbow]

Homosexual relationships are sinful and sinful things wont be found in heaven. Thats equivalent to a non-married couple in heaven- not gonna happen. The only intimate relationships in heaven will be eternally married husbands and wives

 

No.  all types of relationships will be in heaven.  Father's and mothers, Children, brothers and sisters, friends and uncles. That's why sealings go beyond husband and wife, as I see it.  We'll all become one in eternity in a very real sense--well not "we" but those who achieve that highest level of the Celestial. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by stemelbow

[Senator]

The worthy members who were deprived, through little or no fault of their own, of the blessings of a nuclear family in this life will enjoy those blessings in the hereafter. There is no need to feel left out unless they are ignorant of the facts. In that case, they need to be informed.

 

From what I'm hearing, it appears there will be marriages given in heaven....

[Rob Osborn]

No.  all types of relationships will be in heaven.  Father's and mothers, Children, brothers and sisters, friends and uncles. That's why sealings go beyond husband and wife, as I see it.  We'll all become one in eternity in a very real sense--well not "we" but those who achieve that highest level of the Celestial.

What I meant was that the only physically intimate relationships in heaven will be between husbands and wives. We will all be family and close in that regards.

[california boy]

(New Testament | Matthew 12:47 - 50)

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother?  and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my amother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the awill of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my bbrother, and sister, and mother.

 

Thanks for this quote.  I had forgotten about this.  So now we know exactly how the Savior feels about this.  We have a pretty clear definition from Christ himself on what He considers a family.  Can anyone provide anything more clear than this to show what the church considers a family or a revelation that would change the definition of a family that would be different from what Christ himself actually said?

[california boy]

Recently I was not allowed to post a CFR on how the church does and does not define "family". If I get banned for posting this then so be it but let it be known- I do answer my CFR's. It may take a few days but I do get it.

 

Heres more-

 

Family

See also Child, Children; Father, Mortal; Marriage, Marry; Mother

As used in the scriptures, a family consists of a husband and wife, children, and sometimes other relatives living in the same house or under one family head. A family can also be a single parent with children, a husband and wife without children, or even a single person living alone.

Eternal family

The Doctrine and Covenants sets forth the eternal nature of the marriage relationship and the family. Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable husbands and wives to become gods (D&C 132:15–20).

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/family?lang=eng&letter=f

 

http://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

 

Let there be no doubt on how the LDS church defines family of the which a gay couple is "Not a family". There, I said my piece.

No one is disagreeing that the scriptures talk about a family as being a father. a mother and children.  No one is saying that the church calls a father, mother and children a family.  The question that is put before us is whether that is the ONLY definition of what a family is.  You are making the claim that this is the ONLY definition of a family.  As noted above, Christ himself clearly defined a family different than what you are claiming.

 

I would now like to ask for a CFR that the church ONLY defines a family as a father, mother and possibly children.  As you know from previous threads where you have not provided us with a CFR on this question, you were kicked out of the thread.  I would hope that you now could answer the CFR or take back your claim.  

[california boy]

She can still love each deeply. If the adults want church membership they must cut off entirely their intimate relationship. At that point they could still live under the same roof as long as they were no longer intimately connected as a couple.

And I would like a CFR that this is church doctrine or even church policy.  Because when I talked to my stake president and bishop about this question they told me specifically that I could not have a gay room mate even if there was no sexual contact.  When you provide the CFR, then I will send it to my stake president and see if we can get this cleared up.