Carbon Dating Horse Remains

[thesometimesaint]

Here, let me add a few words to Alma 18 for you that more closely match your description:  

 

 

 9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding ON thy ^ahorses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses MEATS and UPON chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a ^bgreat ^cfeast OF HORSE appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

 

Thanx.

[cdowis]

This is the first I've seen of your requests, I will post later.

 

Others have used that argument.  Did not mean that you personally are ignoring the CFR.

[Sevenbak]

Thanx.

Not to beat a dead horse or anything... 

[omni]

This is the third time that I have made this request on this particular assertion, but no reponse so far.

 

Please give us the dating and location of these "example of art".  Are these examples in the BOM time period and location.

 

This is a formal CFR, please.

 

PS Where are you getting these arguments?

 

Here's one figure of a jaguar dated from 200 B.C. to 600 A.D.

 

The representation of jaguars in Mesoamerican cultures has a long history, with iconographic examples dating back to at least the mid-Formative period of Mesoamerican chronology. The jaguar (Panthera onca) is an animal with a prominent association and appearance in the cultures and belief systems of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican societies

 

 

 

Then we have images of horses such as this 40,000 year old cave painting.

 

 

 

I'm not sure why you're concerned with where I'm getting my arguments from.  I'm simply adding 2 + 2 and realizing it equals four.

 

eta:  I tried to add a variety of photos from around the ancient world showing images of horses, but I kept getting this error,  "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community" when I pushed submit.

Edited December 9, 2013 by omni

[omni]

Formal CFR that the aboriginal people had never seen or heard of horses before the Spanish arrived.  What you offered is nothing more than the authors assertions with no references.

 

The information I linked to came from Jared Diamond's best-seller Guns, Germs, and Steel (which I highly recommend), the winner of both the Pulitzer Prize and the Aventis Prize for Best Science Book.  But if that doesn't work for you, here's a quote from page four of the academic paper John linked to.

 

Goathanari came down to the shore to see the ships.  When there he admired the lofty bulwarks, examined the tackle of the ships, observed attentively the instruments of iron, but fixed his eyes most upon the horses of which the Indians were entirely destitute.  A great number of fine horses--fleet for the course and strong to bear armour--had been brought out by the Spaniards.  These horses had plated bits, trappings of gay colors, and straps highly polished.  The formidable appreaance of these animals was not without terror to the Indians, for they suspected that they fed on human flesh.

 

[omni]

A professor in Latin American Studies has provided a really great resource for foundational literature in the field (one of my degrees is in Latin American Studies). One deals with the introduction of the horse:

 

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/colonial/horse-america.pdf

 

A better CFR would be aimed at finding a single source that indicates that Native Americans were familiar with the horse before the arrival of the Spanish.

 

Thanks John!  I've actually read this paper before, thanks for making it easy for me to find again.

[thesometimesaint]

Here's one figure of a jaguar dated from 200 B.C. to 600 A.D.

 

 

 

Then we have images of horses such as this 40,000 year old cave painting.

 

 

 

I'm not sure why you're concerned with where I'm getting my arguments from.  I'm simply adding 2 + 2 and realizing it equals four.

 

eta:  I tried to add a variety of photos from around the ancient world showing images of horses, but I kept getting this error,  "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community" when I pushed submit.

And we have tentative evidence for the American horse much later than that. We can't simply disregard it just because we don't like the implications. As I said I'm not convinced that the Lehites used horses for anything other than an occasional food source.

 

I'm familiar with the European cave painting and some American petroglyphs. Some American ones definitely could be of a horse. https://www.google.com/search?q=American+petroglyphs&client=firefox-a&hs=bHC&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source

 

More like 2x + 2x isn't always 4.

[jkwilliams]

And we have tentative evidence for the American horse much later than that. We can't simply disregard it just because we don't like the implications. As I said I'm not convinced that the Lehites used horses for anything other than an occasional food source.

 

I'm familiar with the European cave painting and some American petroglyphs. Some American ones definitely could be of a horse. https://www.google.com/search?q=American+petroglyphs&client=firefox-a&hs=bHC&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source

 

More like 2x + 2x isn't always 4.

 

What evidence are you talking about that places horses in a later context?

[thesometimesaint]

What evidence are you talking about that places horses in a later context?

 

See my link. Of course the petroglyphs don't mandate the horse in America. But it doesn't remove the possibility either.

[jkwilliams]

See my link. Of course the petroglyphs don't mandate the horse in America. But it doesn't remove the possibility either.

 

Do we have definite dates on these petroglyphs? Color me extremely skeptical.

[ERayR]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the text is referring to when it mentions horses and chariots associated with transportation?

 

I don't see it associated with transportation.  That appears to be your own extrapolation.  You are not the only one who does it though.  It is common to extrapolate in terms of our own experience.

[jkwilliams]

I don't see it associated with transportation.  That appears to be your own extrapolation.  You are not the only one who does it though.  It is common to extrapolate in terms of our own experience.

 

So, it's just coincidence that the horse and chariots are prepared at the same time the king is going to make a journey.

[ERayR]

So, it's just coincidence that the horse and chariots are prepared at the same time the king is going to make a journey.

 

Note that even though chariots are mentioned the horses are listed with their cattle and provisions for seven years 

 

3 Nephi 4:4 

4 Therefore, there was no chance for the robbers to plunder and to obtain food, save it were to come up in open battle against the Nephites; and the Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having reserved for themselves provisions, and horses and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of seven years, in the which time they did hope to destroy the robbers from off the face of the land; and thus the eighteenth year did pass away.

 

3 Nephi 3:22

22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

[omni]

So, it's just coincidence that the horse and chariots are prepared at the same time the king is going to make a journey.

 

 

I'm still wondering how everyone was able to go their entire lives without ever having to use the bathroom...after all it never mentions it in the text.

[jkwilliams]

Note that even though chariots are mentioned the horses are listed with their cattle and provisions for seven years 

 

3 Nephi 4:4 

4 Therefore, there was no chance for the robbers to plunder and to obtain food, save it were to come up in open battle against the Nephites; and the Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having reserved for themselves provisions, and horses and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of seven years, in the which time they did hope to destroy the robbers from off the face of the land; and thus the eighteenth year did pass away.

 

3 Nephi 3:22

22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

 

So, they ate the chariots?

 

Either that, or they used the horses and chariots to carry their provisions to the place where they were to gather. Just saying.

[ERayR]

So, they ate the chariots?

 

Either that, or they used the horses and chariots to carry their provisions to the place where they were to gather. Just saying.

 

Are you being deliberatly obtuse or does it just come naturally?

 

Did you ever try to drive a chariot through a jungle?

[jkwilliams]

Are you being deliberatly obtuse or does it just come naturally?

 

Did you ever try to drive a chariot through a jungle?

 

I've walked through a jungle. I don't know about you, but I assume they would have driven the chariots down the roads the Mayans built, like this one.

 

 

Doesn't look like it would be that hard to me. YMMV.

[jkwilliams]

FYI, the Maya built an extensive network of roads, called "sacbe" (plural "sacbeob"), some between 100 and 300 km long. Here's a good article about the system in the Yucatan.

 

http://www.famsi.org/reports/98027/98027Mathews01.pdf

[Anijen]

I've walked through a jungle. I don't know about you, but I assume they would have driven the chariots down the roads the Mayans built, like this one.

 

 

Doesn't look like it would be that hard to me. YMMV.

Perhaps they did.

[rodheadlee]

I've walked through a jungle. I don't know about you, but I assume they would have driven the chariots down the roads the Mayans built, like this one.

 

 

Doesn't look like it would be that hard to me. YMMV.

A better question is why build roads like that if you have no chariots, wagons, etc.?

[strappinglad]

The roads in Mesoamerica pale in comparison to those of the Inca. The Inca had thousands of miles of roads and trails and yet archeologists still claim they didn't used the wheel. Llamas and foot traffic carried the stones that built Machu Picchu over hill and dale for dozens of miles.

[jkwilliams]

The roads in Mesoamerica pale in comparison to those of the Inca. The Inca had thousands of miles of roads and trails and yet archeologists still claim they didn't used the wheel. Llamas and foot traffic carried the stones that built Machu Picchu over hill and dale for dozens of miles.

 

Actually, archaeologists claim there's no evidence for the use of wheeled vehicles. That would be because there isn't any evidence of such use.

 

BTW, the stones used to build Machu Picchu came from a local quarry, which meant that stone wasn't carried over hill or dale or for dozens of miles. Here's an image of the quarry:

 

[jkwilliams]

A better question is why build roads like that if you have no chariots, wagons, etc.?

It's pretty simple. As ERayR mentioned, the jungle is pretty dense and grows quickly, and it rains a lot. A raised road bed made of stone preserves routes through the jungle and minimizes water erosion. That they were successful is obvious, as the roads are still around after hundreds of years.

[rick7475]

Actually, archaeologists claim there's no evidence for the use of wheeled vehicles. That would be because there isn't any evidence of such use.

 

BTW, the stones used to build Machu Picchu came from a local quarry, which meant that stone wasn't carried over hill or dale or for dozens of miles. Here's an image of the quarry:

 

 

 

Yet they had knowledge of axels, spokes, and how to attach wheels properly to propell a vehicle. I find it highly improbable that they did not experiement and utilize carts (two wheeled and four wheeled) at some point. Pulling a two wheeled cart (or chariot) does not require an animal. Since a vast majority of the archaeological record of the New World has not been excavated, concluding there is no evidence of a wheeled cart is premature. 

[jkwilliams]

Yet they had knowledge of axels, spokes, and how to attach wheels properly to propell a vehicle. I find it highly improbable that they did not experiement and utilize carts (two wheeled and four wheeled) at some point. Pulling a two wheeled cart (or chariot) does not require an animal. Since a vast majority of the archaeological record of the New World has not been excavated, concluding there is no evidence of a wheeled cart is premature.

It is not premature to say that to date, there is no such evidence. Will there ever be? I have no idea, and saying so would indeed be premature. What I will say is that societies that used wheeled vehicles for transport and large animals to pull them tend to develop differently than societies without such things. To date, the known archaeological record of ancient America accords with a society without wheels and large beasts of burden. But you never know.