Carbon Dating Horse Remains

[thesometimesaint]

According to the B of M ( as has been mentioned earlier) Ammon fed and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariots, which sounds like domestication and training in some numbers.

 

This is bolstered by Enos 1:21 which states:

 

"21. And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses."

 

3 Nephi 3:22 which occured many years later states:

 

"22. And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies."

 

This just sounds to me like a people that had a long standing relationship to domesticated and trained horses.

 

A logical conclusion would be that there should be more than ample evidence available not only archaeologically but also living specimens in the ensuing civilizations.

 

I just don't buy this scraping for a tooth here and there that maybe we can attempt to carbon date...........

Chariots are not necessarily pulled by horses. http://www.ancient.eu.com/chariot/

[rick7475]

According to the B of M ( as has been mentioned earlier) Ammon fed and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariots, which sounds like domestication and training in some numbers.

 

This is bolstered by Enos 1:21 which states:

 

"21. And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses."

 

3 Nephi 3:22 which occured many years later states:

 

"22. And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies."

 

This just sounds to me like a people that had a long standing relationship to domesticated and trained horses.

 

A logical conclusion would be that there should be more than ample evidence available not only archaeologically but also living specimens in the ensuing civilizations.

 

I just don't buy this scraping for a tooth here and there that maybe we can attempt to carbon date...........

 

"I just don't buy this scraping for a tooth here and there that maybe we can attempt to carbon date ......"

 

FYI, as stated earlier in this post, quite a few times in fact, horse remains were carbon dated, not just a tooth here and there, and yielded three dates before Columbus and well after the 10,000 bench mark. Not just one fluke, or two 'coincidences' and not by Mormon archaeologists who obviously lie, but non-Mormons with three samples.  

 

Really, downplaying glaring evidence? Such a typical tactic.

[Palerider]

Chariots are not necessarily pulled by horses. http://www.ancient.eu.com/chariot/

 

I think you need to work on your critical reading skills. If anything this supports what I have been saying.

[thesometimesaint]

If I am misunderstanding please forgive me. However you do seem to be linking the horse to ways it is not necessary for the BoM peoples to have used.

[Palerider]

If I am misunderstanding please forgive me. However you do seem to be linking the horse to ways it is not necessary for the BoM peoples to have used.

 

I'm willing to acknowledge, as I have stated earlier, that there may have been horses in North America in small groups or numbers as Katherine has stated.

 

But the archeological evidence (what there is of it) doesn't reflect the texts that I have quoted from the B of M.  It especially doesn't match up with the reaction of the central and south american civilizations when they first saw the Spaniards on horseback. It was completely foreign to them.

 

The B of M passages are indicative of a longstanding domesticated relationship with the horse in large quantities. I don't think the fact that the words "horse" and "chariot" being placed in proximity to each other in the text is just one of those goofy coincidences. They are connected.

 

It seems to me that for Mormons the B of M is like a tortured person. You can get it to say whatever you want if you try hard enough. So be careful when you speak of ignoring the glaring evidence......   

[thesometimesaint]

I'm willing to acknowledge, as I have stated earlier, that there may have been horses in North America in small groups or numbers as Katherine has stated.

 

But the archeological evidence (what there is of it) doesn't reflect the texts that I have quoted from the B of M.  It especially doesn't match up with the reaction of the central and south american civilizations when they first saw the Spaniards on horseback. It was completely foreign to them.

 

The B of M passages are indicative of a longstanding domesticated relationship with the horse in large quantities. I don't think the fact that the words "horse" and "chariot" being placed in proximity to each other in the text is just one of those goofy coincidences. They are connected.

 

It seems to me that for Mormons the B of M is like a tortured person. You can get it to say whatever you want if you try hard enough. So be careful when you speak of ignoring the glaring evidence......   

I've never believed that the horse was common in the America's during the Lehite period. The evidence for such just isn't there. So, unless some big find occurs,  it is hard for me to address those that believe it was.

 

I would imagine that after a thousand years a lot of things would look foreign to us. The horse to them was a foreign as the original Anglo-Saxon language is to us. 

 

I don't read it as large quantities. At most a few small herds of indeterminate use is more appropriate IMNTBHO.

 

I think we get ourselves into trouble when we inject European social customs into a culture far removed in time and space from them. We see the utility of the horse as transport. The Lehites may not have seen them as such. IE, A mountain and/or jungle terrain is not conducive for the horse. The Inca's built an massive empire without it. 

[rick7475]

Well, let's look at the terminology.

 

Enos 1:21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

 

If you note, the passage reads flocks of cattle, but not horses. If there were as many horses as you imply, why aren't they mentioned in flocks? I saw many horses in the open ranges of Wyoming, but they were in groups of a dozen or so. Many can be any number, but since it is tagged at the end of the passage it appears as an after thought, which can easily be interpreted as a few.   

 

 

"3 Nephi 3:22 which occured many years later states:"

 

So what's the big deal? The Pre-Columbian C-14 dating horse samples ranged from 800 BC to 1400 AD, Small pockets and herds can survive for a long time.

 

3 Nephi 22. And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

 

This passage indicates no number of horses, just that they had taken their horses ... and then their chariots. Notice chariots are separate from horses, much like their cattle and their flocks. Chariots need not be pulled by an animal, although in this instance I don't see why not ... except the text does not indicate they were pulled, but separate from horses. People can pull chariots, or they can simply be carts, or a travois device like the ones used by the Plains Indians.Since this is the only instance of chariot, they were probably very few. The Meso-American people had knowledge of the wheel, so it is entirely plausible they used wheeled carts, just not often. The dictionary defines a chariot in several ways, including a four-wheeled cart/carriage. This passage includes chariots with cattle and flocks and herds, not soldiers or warriors, so it sounds more like they are used for transportation, perhaps for dignataries or supplies such as grain and their substance.

 

 "This just sounds to me like a people that had a long standing relationship to domesticated and trained horses"

 

If so, there should be many more references. It sounds more like horses were around and used for food like cattle. 

 

"A logical conclusion would be that there should be more than ample evidence available not only archaeologically but also living specimens in the ensuing civilizations."

 

Not if they were small pockets used ocassionaly for food. 

 

In the article present to you about chariots (which you said you read) :  http://www.ancient.eu.com/chariot/ it describes the difficulty ancient people had domesticating horses for riding (some giving up), and one of the theories is that they were not strong enough so that they were bred from different areas. The Mesoamerican horse might not have been suitable for riding, either. 

[katherine the great]

I've always wondered what "flocks of herds" means.

[rick7475]

I've always wondered what "flocks of herds" means.

 

Me too. I sometimes think when he was translating the words either came out too fast or Oliver didn't get them all in the right order. I would be curious to see the original manuscript says. 

[strappinglad]

I've always wondered what "flocks of herds" means.

Having viewed the figures of Acambaro , I think this has reference to the herds of dinosaurs that were feathered like birds,hence a flock of a herd.

[pogi]

I've always wondered what "flocks of herds" means.

 

That is funny wording isn't it?  dictionary.com states that "flock" can refer to "a large group of things."  I imagine multiple herds in close proximity. 

[Palerider]

Well, let's look at the terminology.

 

Enos 1:21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

 

If you note, the passage reads flocks of cattle, but not horses. If there were as many horses as you imply, why aren't they mentioned in flocks? I saw many horses in the open ranges of Wyoming, but they were in groups of a dozen or so. Many can be any number, but since it is tagged at the end of the passage it appears as an after thought, which can easily be interpreted as a few.   

 

 

"3 Nephi 3:22 which occured many years later states:"

 

So what's the big deal? The Pre-Columbian C-14 dating horse samples ranged from 800 BC to 1400 AD, Small pockets and herds can survive for a long time.

 

3 Nephi 22. And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

 

This passage indicates no number of horses, just that they had taken their horses ... and then their chariots. Notice chariots are separate from horses, much like their cattle and their flocks. Chariots need not be pulled by an animal, although in this instance I don't see why not ... except the text does not indicate they were pulled, but separate from horses. People can pull chariots, or they can simply be carts, or a travois device like the ones used by the Plains Indians.Since this is the only instance of chariot, they were probably very few. The Meso-American people had knowledge of the wheel, so it is entirely plausible they used wheeled carts, just not often. The dictionary defines a chariot in several ways, including a four-wheeled cart/carriage. This passage includes chariots with cattle and flocks and herds, not soldiers or warriors, so it sounds more like they are used for transportation, perhaps for dignataries or supplies such as grain and their substance.

 

 "This just sounds to me like a people that had a long standing relationship to domesticated and trained horses"

 

If so, there should be many more references. It sounds more like horses were around and used for food like cattle. 

 

"A logical conclusion would be that there should be more than ample evidence available not only archaeologically but also living specimens in the ensuing civilizations."

 

Not if they were small pockets used ocassionaly for food. 

 

In the article present to you about chariots (which you said you read) :  http://www.ancient.eu.com/chariot/ it describes the difficulty ancient people had domesticating horses for riding (some giving up), and one of the theories is that they were not strong enough so that they were bred from different areas. The Mesoamerican horse might not have been suitable for riding, either. 

 

Keep torturing the text.......it will say whatever you want it to say.........

[strappinglad]

... runs the music theme from ' Mr . Ed ' through his mind...

[rick7475]

Keep torturing the text.......it will say whatever you want it to say.........

 

 

Just reading what is there. 

Edited December 4, 2013 by rick7475

[omni]

We've been able to find ancient paintings or figurines for a variety of large animals living in the Americas, how come none ever showing a horse?

[rick7475]

We've been able to find ancient paintings or figurines for a variety of large animals living in the Americas, how come none ever showing a horse?

 

Has all of New World archaeology been thoroughly completed?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was less than 20%

[Palerider]

Just reading what is there. 

 

Oh yes...Right...right....

[katherine the great]

Has all of New World archaeology been thoroughly completed?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was less than 20%

Waaaaaaayyyyyyy less than 20%.  I would think it's closer to .2% if that!  Jungles, deserts, lakes, buildings--all sitting on top of mysteries yet to be discovered!

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm sure you're right. I even doubt they were used at all....

 

But I think the church thought they were for riding and usually, in training horses, riding come before training for chariots, which as we see, was a part of the Book of Mormon story. And then there are always those pesky illustrations some of which were approved by the church..... 

 

But regardless of which were approved and which were not, it is more than obvious that it is generally thought by LDS that horses were ridden in the BOM.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and yokels might tend to believe "as many as six impossible things before breakfast" (Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland).

[Palerider]

Yes, and yokels might tend to believe "as many as six impossible things before breakfast" (Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland).

 

I totally agree.

[Sevenbak]

We've been able to find ancient paintings or figurines for a variety of large animals living in the Americas, how come none ever showing a horse?

I'm not so sure that's true.  There are lots of rock art depicting horses, but since the scientific consensus is that they didn't exist, they are all assumed to post date Columbus.   I don't know if they've all been tested for patina, dating, etc, but I would be interested in such findings.   Also, does anyone have any info on what this is, the figure on the left?  it's one of the wheeled toys found in Mesoamerica.  Sure looks like something with a bridle in its mouth to me, but I'm not up on these discoveries. 

 

[Sevenbak]

Has all of New World archaeology been thoroughly completed?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was less than 20%

Well, they haven't dug up or around the Hill Cumorah in New York yet.  I don't imagine that will ever happen, given it goes agains the faith based model of the religion.

 

And most of the mounds in N. America are protected, and the ones obliterated and discovered by amateurs in the last couple of hundred years, the findings are discarded as unofficial.  Plus, there are still millions of miles of jungles and forests in central america that's untouched.

[katherine the great]

 

And most of the mounds in N. America are protected, and the ones obliterated and discovered by amateurs in the last couple of hundred years, the findings are discarded as unofficial.  Plus, there are still millions of miles of jungles and forests in central america that's untouched.

Central America?  Nah.  South America?  Definitely!

[cdowis]

We've been able to find ancient paintings or figurines for a variety of large animals living in the Americas, how come none ever showing a horse?

 

Give us the dates for the paintings and figurines and location found.  Bottom line, are they in the BOM time and place.

[katherine the great]

I'm not so sure that's true.  There are lots of rock art depicting horses, but since the scientific consensus is that they didn't exist, they are all assumed to post date Columbus.   I don't know if they've all been tested for patina, dating, etc, but I would be interested in such findings.   Also, does anyone have any info on what this is, the figure on the left?  it's one of the wheeled toys found in Mesoamerica.  Sure looks like something with a bridle in its mouth to me, but I'm not up on these discoveries. 

 

 

Could be a dog.  It does kind of look like it might have a mane though.  Hmmmm....