Carbon Dating Horse Remains

[jkwilliams]

I still don't understanding. The horse has a pretty specific meaning and it can be separate and apart from chariot used for transportation. As I said the pyramids of Egypt and the Great Wall of China were built without the horse and/or the wheel, though they obviously knew about both. The Incas built a huge empire stretching thousands miles without the horse. That they later adopted the horse from the Spanish is beside the point.

 

That would be my point: "horse and chariot" may mean something other than what the text immediately suggests. If you want to argue for the existence of some kind of horse in Book of Mormon times, that's another issue. Again, I have not seen any credible evidence of that, but you never know.

[rick7475]

A two-wheeled cart could fit on that road easily and people could step off out of the way, especially if the cart belonged to royalty, which the Book of Mormon indicates. I ride my bike on bike paths all the time narrower than that road and there are joggers pulling their two wheeled carts with their kids in the back. There are numerous designs for a two wheeled cart, you can pull them, push them, some are wide, some are narrow. They can be pulled by people or animals. Since most of the references for a chariot apply to King Lamoni, perhaps he is the only one who experimented with some type of wheeled apparatus, possibly pulled by a horse or by his slaves or dogs or llamas or horses. I am guessing the chariots were for his royal family since they seem important and a luxury. He could have experimented with war chariots. But the number of such vehicles may have been very small. 

 

Some dogs are strong enough to pull carts. Up north they pull dog sleds. Here is a picture of a dog pulling a two wheeled cart:

 

http://www.dogsportmagazine.com/?p=2315

 

 

If you google "llama cart" you will see a dozen pictures of llamas pulling carts. Not only did they have toys with wheels, but the Mesoamericans have used spinning wheels for sewing. Whether they used wheeled vehicles for long periods times or not, they had the knowledge and certainly must have experiemented with carts.   

[cave man]

Horses probably weren't owned by the commoner they where probably reserved for military, royalty and the wealthy with a scattering of others throughout a given community descendants perhaps of animals owned by previously living ancestors cats and chariots perhaps less commonly used being reserved for transporting large quantities of goods out resources at harvest or during preparations before an attack but depending i don't think any one has implied that chariots where as regular occurrence as Ford and Chevy are today. It would also depend on the grade of the sholder of the road when the road was in use. what we see today could have been more underground back then as more of a foundation. I have ridden horses over drop offs like that and more countless times and depending on the situation and the dimensions would probably take a cart pulled by a horse off it. Cats meeting on such a road where probably few and far between and pedestrians probably got out of the way when one was on the road

[thesometimesaint]

It took me several days to read through this post so forgive me for not putting references or quotes up.

According to the popular scientific community dinosaurs roamed the earth for millions of years and at any given time there where millions on the planet at any given time during that time span

Utilizing the thought process given by some in this post those numbers are ludicrous since the foils that have been found are in the teens of thousands ( ish, i dont have exact numbers) which would imply that they believe that over those millions of years that there where only a few hundred to a few thousand dinosaurs at any given time planet wide or that's my understanding of many of you're assumptions based on the find of a handful of horse remains potentially dating to the B of M time framer

According to the popular scientific community until after 1492 (i think it was) the earth was flat and that had been the knowledge of the best and the brightest since the beginning of time (with very few exceptions). they probably where hoping Columbus would sail of the edge of the world and die so they could be rid of him and his crazy notions. well he succeeded and proved then all wrong turning the scientific world upside down which is solid evidence that the popular scientific community can and at times has been way off the mark in there "knowledge" and understanding

Lehi if i remember right was a pretty wealthy merchant who regularly traveled long distances doing his work and back then those who did that and especially those with wealth owned and commonly used there horses which implies that Nephi and his brothers most likely grew up learning to ride horses and where probably very good at it so upon arriving in the promised land would most likely catch and train at least some of the horses they found and use them on a regular basis.

If you where to up root your family and take them into the wilderness wouldn't you try to give them a new life as close to the one they has. Most likely. Our wives would love a hot bath regularly and our kids would need one, the men would like a comfortable chair to sit on and every one would like a comfortable home (of some kind) to come home to. So common sense would be they noisily used horses the same as they always had.

When the native Americans got the horse once they realized that it could be ridden and a great use to them that way they did, they also those used them to pull loads and when needed they ate them so out its also likely that those in B of M times did also on all accounts

You assume that flora and fauna in there lands are the same today as it was then. that may not have been the case. Ancient Jerusalem use to be much fourteen than it is today and a lot can happen in a couple thousand years

Horses are a lot of work and it its quite possible that at a point in time the predominate culture may have decided that they where to much work and they where better off eating them which would decline the numbers quickly and making them extinct or nearly so on this continent and if at that time the eco system was similar today as it was then they are in a big compost heap and not much would be around for us to find.

You are also assuming that they wouldn't use horses to pull chariots as much as others assume they did though common sense implies they would and some are assuming that the chariots where wide when they could have been quite narrow.

People (all people) can't see past there own nose without an open mind and often those within the scientific community don't have an open mind because it is not what they are taught and it could cost them funding or there jobs if they go against popular knowledge. An open mind opens up many possibilities on what could happen and can lead to whole new worlds a it did with Columbus.

The Book of Mormon is a religious book and as such those who read it without an open mind and a contrite spirit will gain nothing from its pages and believe and learn nothing from its pages.

Sorry for the long winded post

 

Death and dying are a common event. Fossilization is a rare event.

 

The ancient Greeks proved the earth was round, and very close to how big it is, thousands of years before Cristoforo Colombo was born. Old Chris also knew the earth was round, just not how big it is.

 

We don't know from the text how wealthy Lehi was. Bride prices were common in that time and place. They could be quite high for the relatively well off. Father Lehi acquired three wives for his sons, So a logical argument can be made that he was relatively well off.

 

Lehi obviously knew about horses. It is unclear as to what use, if any, his descendents put them too.

 

While I don't believe the horse was common I do agree that the Lehites probably used them as a limited food source.

 

To be effective as roads(With two way traffic) for chariots they need to be at least 2&1/2 time as wide as the narrowest chariot at its widest point. Wagons and other forms for carrying loads need even more space. Otherwise collisions become inevitable. None of the roads, so far extent, are near wide enough.

 

No doubt the America plains Indians found the horse very useful. The Cliff Dwellers of the America south west no so much.

 

I always hear that from the non scientists. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes there is spirited, some times even heated, discussion among scientist. But every scientist that I know would like nothing better than to make the next big discovery that makes them rich, and/or gives them a bigger name in the world of science.

 

Don't have such an open mind that your brain falls out.   Critically but fairly study the LDS canon. Then pray with an open heart and mind to God for the answer to the question of its truth claims.

[thesometimesaint]

That would be my point: "horse and chariot" may mean something other than what the text immediately suggests. If you want to argue for the existence of some kind of horse in Book of Mormon times, that's another issue. Again, I have not seen any credible evidence of that, but you never know.

 

My reading of the text doesn't support that suggestion. The most I can really claim right now is that the horse, and its use, are indeterminate from the text alone. We need other evidence for that. We have tentative evidence from nonLDS archaeologists of horse bones from the correct time frame if not an actual BoM place in the new world(The Church makes no claim as to where the Lehites were in the Americas). Whether that evidence will pans out or not we'll just to WAFO(Wait And Find Out).

[jkwilliams]

My reading of the text doesn't support that suggestion. The most I can really claim right now is that the horse, and its use, are indeterminate from the text alone. We need other evidence for that. We have tentative evidence from nonLDS archaeologists of horse bones from the correct time frame if not an actual BoM place in the new world(The Church makes no claim as to where the Lehites were in the Americas). Whether that evidence will pans out or not we'll just to WAFO(Wait And Find Out).

 

I haven't seen any tentative evidence of horse bones from the correct time frame. Do you have a source for that?

[omni]

 

Here's one figure of a jaguar dated from 200 B.C. to 600 A.D.

 

OK, you have ONE figure.  

 

 

 

 

Then we have images of horses such as this 40,000 year old cave painting.

 

Is this from the BOM time period and location?  

 

 

 

I'm not sure why you're concerned with where I'm getting my arguments from.  I'm simply adding 2 + 2 and realizing it equals four.

 

Just give us facts, instead of assertions.  That is the purpose behind the CFR. 

eta:  I tried to add a variety of photos from around the ancient world showing images of horses, but I kept getting this error,  "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community" when I pushed submit.

 

I don't need pictures.  A listing of such figurines, the dates and location is more than sufficient.

 

 

Here's a figurine of a dog dated 200 B.C.-500 A.D.

 

Bird dated 200 B.C.- A.D. 500

 

Deer firgurine dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

Feline figurine dated A.D. 100-500

 

Dog dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

I really like this dog dated 200 B.C. - A.D.500

 

snake dated 500 B.C. - A.D. 1000.

 

monkey dated 500 B.C - A.D. 1000.

 

Turtle  dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

Frogs dated 200 B.C - A.D. 500

 

crab dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

This is a small part of one collection from one museum and I could keep going, but I think you get the point.  Compare this to the countless number of horses we find in the ancient world dating back to 40,000 year old cave paintings.  I wait with great anticipation to see how this doesn't answer your CFR.

Edited December 11, 2013 by omni

[rick7475]

Here's a figurine of a dog dated 200 B.C.-500 A.D.

 

Bird dated 200 B.C.- A.D. 500

 

Deer firgurine dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

Feline figurine dated A.D. 100-500

 

Dog dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

I really like this dog dated 200 B.C. - A.D.500

 

snake dated 500 B.C. - A.D. 1000.

 

monkey dated 500 B.C - A.D. 1000.

 

Turtle  dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

Frogs dated 200 B.C - A.D. 500

 

crab dated 200 B.C. - A.D. 500

 

This is a small part of one collection from one museum and I could keep going, but I think you get the point.  Compare this to the countless number of horses we find in the ancient world dating back to 40,000 year old cave paintings.  I wait with great anticipation to see how this doesn't answer your CFR.

 

 

 

So where are the bison?

[omni]

So where are the bison?

There are a number of petroglyphs and pictographs which display images of the large animals that inhabited present-day United States. I included animals found in Central America because that seems to be where most on this board believe the BoM took place.

[ERayR]

Here's what I said:

 

 

 

 

Two options:

 

1. Glaring anachronism.

2. "Horse and chariot" mean something else.

 

As far as #2, I'll just repeat myself: "Maybe someone will figure this out in a way that makes sense."

 

Makes  sense to who?  To me or to your preconceived ideas? 

[ERayR]

That would be my point: "horse and chariot" may mean something other than what the text immediately suggests. If you want to argue for the existence of some kind of horse in Book of Mormon times, that's another issue. Again, I have not seen any credible evidence of that, but you never know.

 

The text may not be suggesting what you are implying it is saying.

[ERayR]

A two-wheeled cart could fit on that road easily and people could step off out of the way, especially if the cart belonged to royalty, which the Book of Mormon indicates. I ride my bike on bike paths all the time narrower than that road and there are joggers pulling their two wheeled carts with their kids in the back. There are numerous designs for a two wheeled cart, you can pull them, push them, some are wide, some are narrow. They can be pulled by people or animals. Since most of the references for a chariot apply to King Lamoni, perhaps he is the only one who experimented with some type of wheeled apparatus, possibly pulled by a horse or by his slaves or dogs or llamas or horses. I am guessing the chariots were for his royal family since they seem important and a luxury. He could have experimented with war chariots. But the number of such vehicles may have been very small. 

 

Some dogs are strong enough to pull carts. Up north they pull dog sleds. Here is a picture of a dog pulling a two wheeled cart:

 

http://www.dogsportmagazine.com/?p=2315

 

 

If you google "llama cart" you will see a dozen pictures of llamas pulling carts. Not only did they have toys with wheels, but the Mesoamericans have used spinning wheels for sewing. Whether they used wheeled vehicles for long periods times or not, they had the knowledge and certainly must have experiemented with carts.   

 

but if two of those carts met going in opposite directions there would be a problem.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ERayR

[jkwilliams]

Makes  sense to who?  To me or to your preconceived ideas? 

 

I don't have any preconceived ideas as to how that might be resolved.

[jkwilliams]

The text may not be suggesting what you are implying it is saying.

 

I believe I said exactly that, though I'm not sure what you think I'm implying.

[cdowis]

omni,

 

I am impressed.  I guess we'll just have to keep looking.

[rick7475]

There are a number of petroglyphs and pictographs which display images of the large animals that inhabited present-day United States. I included animals found in Central America because that seems to be where most on this board believe the BoM took place.

 

 

Bison roamed south central Mexico. They were known in Teotihuacan. The Mayans traded with this city and its influence was well regarded. They knew about the Bison.

[jkwilliams]

Bison roamed south central Mexico. They were known in Teotihuacan. The Mayans traded with this city and its influence was well regarded. They knew about the Bison.

 

Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of bison habitat extending beyond Northern Mexico (Chihuahua), but I'm always happy to adjust my thinking based on new information.

Edited December 12, 2013 by jkwilliams

[cave man]

Death and dying are a common event. Fossilization is a rare event.

 

The ancient Greeks proved the earth was round, and very close to how big it is, thousands of years before Cristoforo Colombo was born. Old Chris also knew the earth was round, just not how big it is.

 

Yes the Greeks knew and so did Columbus but again the scientific community at the time didn't believe it that didn't make it UN true just them narrow minded had they believed it some one would have tried it long before. Not including the Vikings

We don't know from the text how wealthy Lehi was. Bride prices were common in that time and place. They could be quite high for the relatively well off. Father Lehi acquired three wives for his sons, So a logical argument can be made that he was relatively well off.

 

If you read the text in its entirety keeping an open mind with a desire to understand you would see that he had much gold and silver with which he tried to purchase the brass plates which said gold was stolen or left behind as they tried to preserve there lives and this was before Lehi acquired wives for his sons.

Lehi obviously knew about horses. It is unclear as to what use, if any, his descendents put them too.

 

He would have taught his sons what he knew and that tradition would have continued for a time until for one reason or another it was no longer feasible or possible or the the people lost the desire to put forth the effort to maintain a mountable herd of horses

While I don't believe the horse was common I do agree that the Lehites probably used them as a limited food source.

 

I don't doubt that they where used at times as food but common sense and practicality as well as tradition would show that they would have been used similar to other nations in other parts of the

To be effective as roads(With two way traffic) for chariots they need to be at least 2&1/2 time as wide as the narrowest chariot at its widest point. Wagons and other forms for carrying loads need even more space. Otherwise collisions become inevitable. None of the roads, so far extent, are near wide enough.

 

If the chariots weren't real common outside of military and the wealthy with perhaps a few other scattered through villages there would be no need to make the road wider because for average use the width is fine.

Out of curiosity what is the actual width and height of that road

No doubt the America plains Indians found the horse very useful. The Cliff Dwellers of the America south west no so much.

 

I always hear that from the non scientists. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes there is spirited, some times even heated, discussion among scientist. But every scientist that I know would like nothing better than to make the next big discovery that makes them rich, and/or gives them a bigger name in the world of science.

 

Unless they felt it would kill there career our where to wrapped up in popular thinking of the time and don't see what is or could be staring them in the face

Don't have such an open mind that your brain falls out.   Critically but fairly study the LDS canon. Then pray with an open heart and mind to God for the answer to the question of its truth claims.

Death and dying are a common event. Fossilization is a rare event.

 

The more open you're mind the more light can get in and help you're brain grow if it is to closed enough light can't get in and you're brain will just rot and grow mushrooms. With an open mind though you don't want to stand on you're head stuff might fall out just a word of caution.

Studied many religions and choose to follow the one God told me to

The ancient Greeks proved the earth was round, and very close to how big it is, thousands of years before Cristoforo Colombo was born. Old Chris also knew the earth was round, just not how big it is.

 

And had a hard time selling the idea to those who thought they knew. I bet they felt pretty stupid when he came back with proof of his discovery knowing had they listened earlier it could have been there name engraved in history not his

We don't know from the text how wealthy Lehi was. Bride prices were common in that time and place. They could be quite high for the relatively well off. Father Lehi acquired three wives for his sons, So a logical argument can be made that he was relatively well off.

 

Lehi obviously knew about horses. It is unclear as to what use, if any, his descendents put them too.

 

While I don't believe the horse was common I do agree that the Lehites probably used them as a limited food source.

 

To be effective as roads(With two way traffic) for chariots they need to be at least 2&1/2 time as wide as the narrowest chariot at its widest point. Wagons and other forms for carrying loads need even more space. Otherwise collisions become inevitable. None of the roads, so far extent, are near wide enough.

 

No doubt the America plains Indians found the horse very useful. The Cliff Dwellers of the America south west no so much.

 

I always hear that from the non scientists. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes there is spirited, some times even heated, discussion among scientist. But every scientist that I know would like nothing better than to make the next big discovery that makes them rich, and/or gives them a bigger name in the world of science.

 

Don't have such an open mind that your brain falls out.   Critically but fairly study the LDS canon. Then pray with an open heart and mind to God for the answer to the question of its truth claims.

[jkwilliams]

 

Don't have such an open mind that your brain falls out.   Critically but fairly study the LDS canon. Then pray with an open heart and mind to God for the answer to the question of its truth claims.

 

 

I've done that, and it has surprised me where that has led. YMMV.

[thesometimesaint]

I haven't seen any tentative evidence of horse bones from the correct time frame. Do you have a source for that?

 

A number of Carbon-14 dates on horse fossils, especially in the United

States, show ages extending well past the close of the Pleistocene.

Ages obtained from a variety of locations are as follows (these

are all in years before the present): 8,240 (Mead and Meltzer, 1984,

p. 446); 7,000; 8,000 (Hester, 1960, p. 70); 6,160 (Marcus and Berger,

1984, p. 171); ~5,000 (Martin and Webb, 1974, p. 144); 3,800

(Schmidt, 1988, p. 253). A date of 2,167 B.C. was obtained based on

horse bones from the northern part of the Yucatan Peninsula according

to John L. Sorenson (Pers. Comm.)… Some of the unpublished dates run on horse fossils that appear

to be valid are: 5,890 B.C. (Pratt Cave in Texas); 830 B.C. (southern

Saskatchewan, Canada); 815 A.D. (Ontario, Canada); 1,260-1,400

A.D. (Wolf Spider Cave, Colorado). A date of about 1,120 B.C. was

determined using a thermoluminescence method on a horse bone from

Horsethief Cave in Wyoming.

[rick7475]

Do you have a source for that? I've never heard of bison habitat extending beyond Northern Mexico (Chihuahua), but I'm always happy to adjust my thinking based on new information.

 

 

William Temple Hornaday's map on Wikipedia shows the range extending farther south than Chihuahua, but not as far as I originally claimed since I read the map wrong. However, Sorensen documents they were known in Teotihuacan. When I get home I can look up his reference.

[rick7475]

but if two of those carts met going in opposite directions there would be a problem.

 

I don't think the carts were that common, but I also agree that the roads were primarily for foot traffic, though carts could still have traversed them. I believe that chariots or carts or whatever were uncommon and used in times of war for transport or by kings.

[thesometimesaint]

cave man:

 

Not growing mushrooms yet. So did I.

 

To the day he died Chris thought he's landed in east Asia.

 

Francis Bacon is the father of what we consider modern science. Christoforo died before Francis was born.

 

Jerusalem of the Lehi's time wasn't very big, strong, or rich. So that the word "much" is relative. Lehi, and his family, probably ate a little better than the average Jerusalemite. But nowhere near as well as the much bigger, stronger, and richer Babylonian society.

 

While useful in warfare roads are essential for any type of sustained economic activity. Carts, and wagons would be more useful in any society. Forget about the over romanticized paintings of Nephites with arms the size of large logs. The ancient Romans built roads, bridges, and aqueducts for trade they engaged in as much, if not more than, for the military advantage they gave. I can't imagine how it would have been any different for the Lehites. In that context the horse is useful, but not necessary. IE; The Pyramides of ancient Egypt, and the Great wall of China were built without the horse and/or the wheel.

 

Not many people subscribe to pre-Newtonian physics? Build a better mouse trap, and the world will beat a path to your door is a true today as when it was first coined by Emerson(To be totally accurate that is a paraphrase of what he actually said, but that is how he is now quoted) . Of further note is a scientist that sits back and says there is nothing new to discover he isn't doing science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

l

[jkwilliams]

William Temple Hornaday's map on Wikipedia shows the range extending farther south than Chihuahua, but not as far as I originally claimed since I read the map wrong. However, Sorensen documents they were known in Teotihuacan. When I get home I can look up his reference.

Roughly speaking, the habitat extends just south of Coahuila, so I wasn't far off. Looking forward to hearing about Sorensen's comments, as I have never heard anything like that before.