Carbon Dating Horse Remains

[katherine the great]

Katherine,

I just heard back from Wade after sending him your comments and this was his reply

 

He's right in the comments made [i wasn't clear that you were a female, sorry!] . It will take several C-14 dates with all the documentation to go with them in order to convince the scientific community. I'm just sorry that the recent material I've sent in for dating hasn't been successful. Each time I was told there was not sufficient collagen in the samples. I'm wondering if another lab has better equipment/techniques for this. It has been frustrating. I've recently been told of some horse material near Merida (Yucatan Peninsula) that I can examine. If possible I want to get there the first part of next year.

 

Wade

Sounds good.  Thanks for the info!

[Bernard Gui]

There is no mention of humans riding horses in the Book of Mormon.

[katherine the great]

I agree with all you say here, Katherine, and just now leafing through the relevant pages of Sorenson's Mormon's Codex (315-318), I see that FARMS had funded an effort to date all those bones.  Some could not be located.  But three of the ones which could be found and tested gave dates of 830 B.C., 815 A.D., and 1260-1400 A.D., and paleontologist Wade Miller plans to publish those and some others in a scientific report.  I have no idea when or if that will take place, but since FARMS no longer exists, and with funding at a premium these days, I have my doubts.

Bummer.  I hope he can work it out.  He needs to put an AMS on his Christmas list!  

[Sevenbak]

Horses were used as a food source long before they were used for transportation.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that horse translates correctly, and that Nephi (and Joseph Smith) were right about horses being discovered in the new world as stated in 1 Nephi 18:25.  Why would we assume that Nephi, Lehi, Laman, etc., didn't know what horses were for, considering the culture and civilization they came from?

[Sevenbak]

There is no mention of humans riding horses in the Book of Mormon.

There is no mention of humans making cheese in the Book of Mormon either, or for that matter, wool.  Yet we know they had flocks.  Do we really think they only used animals for meat?  ;-)

 

Not a hundredth part could be written...

[Sevenbak]

Further, why would Christ teach from Isaiah to the BoM peoples, in referencing horses and chariots, if the people didn't know what he was talking about?  The BoM mentions horses and chariots in the circumstantial history of the BoM peoples on multiple occasions.  Just because it doesn't use them together in the instances outside of the Isaiah reference doesn't mean the people pulled their own chariots or just had BBQ horse.  

 

I have a hard time with this frame of reference, just because we don't have absolute proof, by professional peer reviewed experts in a scientific society where such courses of academia are considered career ending because they go against the flow.  As has been stated earlier in this thread, more and more instances are coming to light, despite the above mentioned obstacles...

 

 

 

Correction, I forgot about the Lamanite King Lamoni, where horses and chariots are mentioned together.  Maybe it was just the Nephites who only used the horses for BBQ.  ;-)

Edited December 2, 2013 by Sevenbak

[Tiki]

There is no mention of humans riding horses in the Book of Mormon.

Great logic.

There is also no mention of humans doing other mundane commonly-known things in the Book of Mormon.

This is why latrines have never been found in Mesoamerica. Lol.

It's a wonder Mormon left out all the mundane in his text all to the confusion of some.

[Palerider]

I don't understand this theory.  Nephi and company state they found horses upon arrival in the promised land, and they came from a society that used them extensively, and we can only rightly assume that they knew what they were for.  Why wouldn't they use them for riding?

 

I was being somewhat facetious there.

 

I don't think horses existed in the Americas when the B of M places them there. Even if a very few did it would be an anomoly rather than something common.

 

Being a horseman and trainer myself, the thought of using horses for chariots (as is stated regarding Ammon and King Lamoni) without riding them as well is....sorry to put it this way......just ridiculous.

 

If the "Nephites" or "Lamanites" had possesion of horses and were using them for chariots, common sense says they were also riding them. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Palerider

[Tiki]

I was being somewhat facetious there.

 

I don't think horses existed in the Americas when the B of M places them there. Even if a very few did it would be an anomoly rather than something common.

How about goats and cattle?

21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

Assuming the Lehites landed in the "south" as the text states and that area was formally reserved for hunting by the Jaredite Nation:

Ether 10:21

21 And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

Wouldnt it makes sense that Nephi discovered:

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

This wouldn't be possible with Mesoamerica, since it was inhabited by the Maya around 600 B.C. And they were not known to have these animals.

[Sevenbak]

I agree with the latter part of your post, but not about there being no horses here. Clearly Nephi knew what horses were. I don't believe it to be a mistranslation nor do I believe modern scientific understanding holds higher truth than the BoM text.

[Palerider]

How about goats and cattle?

21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

Assuming the Lehites landed in the "south" as the text states and that area was formally reserved for hunting by the Jaredite Nation:

Ether 10:21

21 And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

Wouldnt it makes sense that Nephi discovered:

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

This wouldn't be possible with Mesoamerica, since it was inhabited by the Maya around 600 B.C. And they were not known to have these animals.

 

If I read you correctly I would agree.

 

FAIR seems to attempt to make the case that the reformed Egyptian was extremely limited in vocabulary and so some "language borrowing" was going on and that "perhaps" what was being referred to as a horse was in reality, the tapir or some other animal. But in the context, one sees a differentiation between "cattle" and "ox" and between "horse" and "asx". It really seems whomever did the writing here knew what animals they were talking about. 

 

Plus, coming from the Middle-east as they supossedly did, The Nephites would have been very familiar with what a horse was and would have denoted it that way.

[Palerider]

I agree with the latter part of your post, but not about there being no horses here. Clearly Nephi knew what horses were. I don't believe it to be a mistranslation nor do I believe modern scientific understanding holds higher truth than the BoM text.

 

And that's what makes America such a great place to live. We can pretty much believe whatever we want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

 

But when one adds all of the problems up, it becomes terribly persuasive regarding the veracity of BoM text.

[katherine the great]

There is no mention of humans making cheese in the Book of Mormon either, or for that matter, wool.  Yet we know they had flocks.  Do we really think they only used animals for meat?  ;-)

 

Not a hundredth part could be written...

Ancient Native Americans making cheese?  I don't think so.

[Palerider]

Ancient Native Americans making cheese?  I don't think so.

 

I certainly wouldn't disagree with you. But if we follow the logic that that these people came from the middle-east and brought with them their culinary customs, why wouldn't we expect to see cheese (and it's making) as a part of their diet?

[Sevenbak]

And that's what makes America such a great place to live. We can pretty much believe whatever we want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

 

But when one adds all of the problems up, it becomes terribly persuasive regarding the veracity of BoM text.

I see no big problems regarding the veracity of the BOM text. So why then should it become such a stretch to believe the words as written by the prophet?

[Sevenbak]

Ancient Native Americans making cheese?  I don't think so.

making cheese is not terribly hard, and it was the best way to preserve dairy products. Why, like the horses, would Lehi and co. not have this knowledge?

Just because we study the fallen remnant of the once enlightened people doesn't mean we know everything about the ancient civilization that is no longer there.

Besides Christ himself said to the Nephites... blessed are the cheesemakers...

Sorry, couldn't resist... Besides there are many here who study the ancient American cultures... :-) okay I'll stop now!

[Palerider]

I see no big problems regarding the veracity of the BOM text. So why then should it become such a stretch to believe the words as written by the prophet?

 

I think you just answered your own question.

 

If a person sees no problems with the BoM and it's creation, then believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that his words are inspired, isn't going to be a problem either.

 

I just don't happen to find either case to be credible anymore.

 

It's all just a little too cheesy.......sorry....had to throw that in.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Palerider

[Sevenbak]

Well I guess yo gurt me on that one!

[Palerider]

Well I guess yo gurt me on that one!

 

Don't throw all your curds a whey. You might need them to a'provo lone.........

 

Ohhh... that's bad.....

[rick7475]

How about goats and cattle?

21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

Assuming the Lehites landed in the "south" as the text states and that area was formally reserved for hunting by the Jaredite Nation:

Ether 10:21

21 And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

Wouldnt it makes sense that Nephi discovered:

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

This wouldn't be possible with Mesoamerica, since it was inhabited by the Maya around 600 B.C. And they were not known to have these animals.

 

 

Soooo, this thread was aimed at C-14 dating of horse remains, and three specimens were dated before Columbus by non-Mormons, which I find quite fascinating as a good start in proving horses existed in Mesoamerica after the estimated extinction of 10,000 BC, probably in small isolated groups. I referenced Sorensen's "Mormon Codex" which also adresses these arguments too.  

 

I am unclear about your last statement, that it would not be possible for animals to co-exist with humans in Mesoamerica?

Edited December 2, 2013 by rick7475

[Palerider]

Soooo, this thread was aimed at C-14 dating of horse remains, and three specimens were dated before Columbus by non-Mormons, which I find quite fascinating as a good start in proving horses existed in Mesoamerica after the estimated extinction of 10,000 BC, probably in small isolated groups. I referenced Sorensen's "Mormon Codex" which also adresses these arguments too.  

 

I am unclear about your last statement, that it would not be possible for animals to co-exist with humans in Mesoamerica?

 

I think what he was referring to were the cows and oxen that weren't here when the B of M says they were. Not animals co-existing with humans in general.

 

Plus, I find all of this to be pretty weak. I'll believe it when I see it published in the appropriate journal. 

 

"But three of the ones which could be found and tested gave dates of 830 B.C., 815 A.D., and 1260-1400 A.D., and paleontologist Wade Miller plans to publish those and some others in a scientific report.  I have no idea when or if that will take place, but since FARMS no longer exists, and with funding at a premium these days, I have my doubts."

[thesometimesaint]

I think what he was referring to were the cows and oxen that weren't here when the B of M says they were. Not animals co-existing with humans in general.

 

Plus, I find all of this to be pretty weak. I'll believe it when I see it published in the appropriate journal. 

 

"But three of the ones which could be found and tested gave dates of 830 B.C., 815 A.D., and 1260-1400 A.D., and paleontologist Wade Miller plans to publish those and some others in a scientific report.  I have no idea when or if that will take place, but since FARMS no longer exists, and with funding at a premium these days, I have my doubts."

 

Could the horse have lived in BoM lands? Sure, but I don't see wide spread use of the horse in Pre-Columbian America of the BoM. It is unclear as to what use they were put to.  Horses are still raised for their meat around the world.

[katherine the great]

Could the horse have lived in BoM lands? Sure, but I don't see wide spread use of the horse in Pre-Columbian America of the BoM. It is unclear as to what use they were put to.  Horses are still raised for their meat around the world.

I don't see any reason that some isolated populations couldn't have survived to a late date--look at Homo florensiensis!  The reality that such a strange little humanoid creature was still alive 17,000 years ago shocked the entire world!  Not sure though about the domestication thing. I think they probably would have been wild horses and hunted. If they had been domesticated, it seems likely they would not have disappeared and would have been widely known and traded.

[Palerider]

According to the B of M ( as has been mentioned earlier) Ammon fed and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariots, which sounds like domestication and training in some numbers.

 

This is bolstered by Enos 1:21 which states:

 

"21. And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses."

 

3 Nephi 3:22 which occured many years later states:

 

"22. And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies."

 

This just sounds to me like a people that had a long standing relationship to domesticated and trained horses.

 

A logical conclusion would be that there should be more than ample evidence available not only archaeologically but also living specimens in the ensuing civilizations.

 

I just don't buy this scraping for a tooth here and there that maybe we can attempt to carbon date...........

[Palerider]

Accidental double post.......

Edited December 3, 2013 by Palerider