Christopher Columbus - Villain Or Visionary

[Sevenbak]

In light of all the political distain for CC bubbling to the surface on today's holiday, I thought it would be a good time to have a thread on him, his life, and whether or not he was in indeed an instrument in God's hands.

 

I'll start with a little here:

 

First Nephi 13:11-12 has been interpreted by many GA's as being Columbus.  His own journals speak of similar working as being inspired by the Holy Ghost to come here.  

 

Brigham Young said God was with him on the deep.

 

Orson Hyde said specifically that the Angel Moroni, the Guardian Angel of America, was his companion, along with the Holy Ghost. 

 

Wilford Woodruff stated that CC was ordained a Hight Priest ( one of only 3) at the time the temple work was done for the Founding Fathers in the St. George Temple.

 

So here's a question... Why so much distain for Columbus?  It is a case of opposition in all things, or something else?

 

 

The revelations of the Gentiles overcoming and scourging the Lamanites are rampant throughout the Book of Mormon, and I guess that issue (the reality of such) is why so many people hate Columbus.

 

Addition thoughts?

[jkwilliams]

Humans are rarely one or the other; we can be both visionaries and villains. I have no trouble believing that God uses all kinds of people to accomplish His will; back when I was a believer, I figured that Joseph Smith was a good example of God using an extremely flawed man to build His kingdom.

 

That said, Columbus "discovered" America because he miscalculated the circumference of the earth, thus believing it would be quicker to go west around the globe than to take the traditional route around the horn of Africa. I kind of like the idea of God inspiring someone to do faulty math.

[strappinglad]

It's been 500+ years folks, let it go. To complain about the man whose explorations allowed all of us to be where we are today is a bit like Al Gore flying around the country in his jet to lecture about the effects of AGW. Columbus was not the first gentile to find and establish colonies in the Americas. He was just the first to represent a nation with the power, ,will , and arrogance to claim the land for itself.

[jkwilliams]

It's been 500+ years folks, let it go. To complain about the man whose explorations allowed all of us to be where we are today is a bit like Al Gore flying around the country in his jet to lecture about the effects of AGW. Columbus was not the first gentile to find and establish colonies in the Americas. He was just the first to represent a nation with the power, ,will , and arrogance to claim the land for itself.

 

Let what go?  Who is complaining?

 

As I said, it's far more interesting to see Columbus as a human being who stumbled upon a great discovery for Western Europe. The idea that he was either a villain or a visionary, but not both, misses the mark and hinders real learning and understanding of the man and his accomplishments.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Humans are rarely one or the other; we can be both visionaries and villains. I have no trouble believing that God uses all kinds of people to accomplish His will; back when I was a believer, I figured that Joseph Smith was a good example of God using an extremely flawed man to build His kingdom.

 

.

All men are extremely flawed...it is all God has to work with.

[jkwilliams]

All men are extremely flawed...it is all God has to work with.

 

Agreed. To me, a prophet's (or explorer's) character is far less important than what he accomplished. Columbus's accomplishments speak for themselves. If I could convince myself that a flawed Joseph Smith brought forth true scripture and a restored truth, I would be right there with you.

Edited October 14, 2013 by jkwilliams

[Damien the Leper]

In 1493, Columbus stole all that he could see. Is Columbus a greedy screw up? Yes. Is it time we got over it? Yes. Can we still learn from his imperialism and stupidity? Of course.

[strappinglad]

In light of all the political distain for CC bubbling to the surface on today's holiday,

This was the statement I was referring to ,jkw .

 

As for Columbus, he personally didn't get much from his discovery. A quick read of his biography and personal papers show he held to the idea that he had found the Indies, not a new land. He also died poor. What Spain and France and England did with his discovery is on their heads, not Columbus'. Also, contrary to what is/was taught in school, mariner nations knew the world was round and also knew the approximate circumference.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-determine-the-earths-circumference.html

Edited October 14, 2013 by strappinglad

[thesometimesaint]

European Exceptionalism. The Great White Hope and Christian God. Yep that was a "Great " thing. The rape of an entire hemisphere. That being said; We stole it fair and square, and we ain't giving it back.

[jkwilliams]

One of my majors in college was Latin American Studies, and the consensus among scholars is that Columbus was a greedy man whose purpose in circumnavigating the globe was to make money by finding a shorter route to India. When he accidentally discovered the Americas, he turned his efforts toward making money by exploiting the land and its inhabitants. I don't think that's in dispute. He was not shy about enslaving and killing people for profit, and there's really no use denying any of that. It's just fact.

 

But that's how the Spanish operated in those days (he was under Spanish employ). They had just reconquered the Iberian peninsula from the Moors (Arabs) earlier in 1492, and the practice was for the military conquerors to take over the conquered lands as feudal lords and exploit the land, its resources, and its inhabitants for personal gain. That Columbus did exactly the same in the Americas is hardly a surprise, but no one complains about the reconquistadores in Spain for being murderous and greedy, which they were. Columbus appears to be singled out because he brought those practices to the Americas.

[jkwilliams]

European Exceptionalism. The Great White Hope and Christian God. Yep that was a "Great " thing. The rape of an entire hemisphere. That being said; We stole it fair and square, and we ain't giving it back.

 

Again, that's presentism, IMO. Raping conquered lands was just part of life for Europeans of that day, as it was among the Incas, the Aztecs, and any number of civilizations.

 

Columbus was a greedy man who enslaved and killed a lot of people, so yes, he's hardly one to be celebrated. But I find it hard to single him out among so many other men who did exactly the same thing, or would have in the same situation.

[thesometimesaint]

Again, that's presentism, IMO. Raping conquered lands was just part of life for Europeans of that day, as it was among the Incas, the Aztecs, and any number of civilizations.

 

Columbus was a greedy man who enslaved and killed a lot of people, so yes, he's hardly one to be celebrated. But I find it hard to single him out among so many other men who did exactly the same thing, or would have in the same situation.

 

I don't have a particular problem with old Chris, flawed as he was. But it is beyond question that the ones that came after him were inspired by Gold, Glory. and the Gospel in that order.

[EllenMaksoud]

In light of all the political distain for CC bubbling to the surface on today's holiday, I thought it would be a good time to have a thread on him, his life, and whether or not he was in indeed an instrument in God's hands.

 

I'll start with a little here:

 

First Nephi 13:11-12 has been interpreted by many GA's as being Columbus.  His own journals speak of similar working as being inspired by the Holy Ghost to come here.  

 

Brigham Young said God was with him on the deep.

 

Orson Hyde said specifically that the Angel Moroni, the Guardian Angel of America, was his companion, along with the Holy Ghost. 

 

Wilford Woodruff stated that CC was ordained a Hight Priest ( one of only 3) at the time the temple work was done for the Founding Fathers in the St. George Temple.

 

So here's a question... Why so much distain for Columbus?  It is a case of opposition in all things, or something else?

 

 

The revelations of the Gentiles overcoming and scourging the Lamanites are rampant throughout the Book of Mormon, and I guess that issue (the reality of such) is why so many people hate Columbus.

 

Addition thoughts?

I've never felt or heard of disdain for Columbus. I was taught that he was the first to reach the new world in school, however in recent years we now know that he was not the first and actually did not get to North America.  There is of course record of vikings coming, and then Middle Easterners, and also Chinese along the West coast. I wonder how everyone made him such a big deal now.

[jkwilliams]

I don't have a particular problem with old Chris, flawed as he was. But it is beyond question that the ones that came after him were inspired by Gold, Glory. and the Gospel in that order.

 

Obviously. No argument here. The pattern among the conquistadores was simple: find disgruntled groups of natives who had been subjugated by the Aztecs or Incas and get them to help overthrow the empire. Once the empire was overthrown, of course, the Spanish turned on those who had been their willing allies. Meet the new boss ... same as the old boss.

[jkwilliams]

I've never felt or heard of disdain for Columbus. I was taught that he was the first to reach the new world in school, however in recent years we now know that he was not the first and actually did not get to North America.  There is of course record of vikings coming, and then Middle Easterners, and also Chinese along the West coast. I wonder how everyone made him such a big deal now.

 

It's not hard to understand. Columbus was the first to bring a permanent presence from elsewhere to the Americas. Not only that, he began the subjugation of the entire hemisphere under Western Europeans that has lasted, more or less, until today. Had the Vikings so dominated the hemisphere, we would be having holidays in their honor today.

[Anijen]

"In the United States especially, his example and voyages answered an unceasing need for self-definition and Identity. Beginning in the eighteenth century, his name was given to the capital of South Carolina, The Capital of Ohio, and the mighty Columbus River in the Pacific Northwest. Through an act of Congress in 1871, the site of the nations capital was named the District of Columbia, New York City has Columbia University, Columbus Circle, and Columbus Avenue."~Laurence Bergreen

 

His marble statue sits atop a seventy-foot granite column rising above Columbus Circle. At its base it proclaims;

 

To

Christopher Columbus

The Italians Resident in America,

Scoffed at Before,

During the Voyage Menaced,

After It Chained,

As Generous As Oppressed,

To the World He Gave a World

 

To me Columbus's voyages constitute one of the greatest adventure stories in history. He was not the first here to America, but it was after him that the world was forever different. It was because of his voyages is what permanently implanted the reality of the New World and was the beginning of the setting in motion consequences that has changed the world. So yes I believe the scriptural account in the Book of Mormon fits him quite well.

 

I believe in spite of all that he did and what we find reprehensible in our presentist view, he was a spiritual man.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Anijen

[jkwilliams]

"In the United States especially, his example and voyages answered an unceasing need for self-definition and Identity. Beginning in the eighteenth century, his name was given to the capital of South Carolina, The Capital of Ohio, and the mighty Columbus River in the Pacific Northwest. Through an act of Congress in 1871, the site of the nations capital was named the District of Columbia, New York City has Columbia University, Columbus Circle, and Columbus Avenue."~Laurence Bergreen

 

His marble statue sits atop a seventy-foot granite column rising above Columbus Circle. At its base it proclaims;

 

To

Christopher Columbus

The Italians Resident in America,

Scoffed at Before,

During the Voyage Menaced,

After It Chained,

As Generous As Oppressed,

To the World He Gave a World

 

To me Columbus's voyages constitute one of the greatest adventure stories in history. He was not the first here to America, but it was after him that the world was forever different. It was because of his voyages is what permanently implanted the reality of the New World and was the beginning of the setting in motion consequences that has changed the world.

 

I believe in spite of all that he did and what we find reprehensible in our presentist view he was a spiritual man.

 

I would say that the fawning praise you cite above is a better example of presentism. He was a man of his times, a sailor who hired out his services to bring riches in trade (spices and such) to the West. I don't see any reason to exalt him above others who did the same thing at the same time. His claim to fame is an accidental discovery of the America, after which he behaved exactly the same way any other conqueror in Spain or elsewhere would have done. I don't think we should demonize him, but I also don't see any reason to proclaim him to be a righteous, spiritual man.

[thesometimesaint]

I've never felt or heard of disdain for Columbus. I was taught that he was the first to reach the new world in school, however in recent years we now know that he was not the first and actually did not get to North America.  There is of course record of vikings coming, and then Middle Easterners, and also Chinese along the West coast. I wonder how everyone made him such a big deal now.

 

I don't see him as a villian. Just very flawed like the rest of us. However he did have plenty of chutzpah. He didn't know where he was going; He didn't know where he was when he got there; and he did it all on borrowed money.

Edited October 14, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[EllenMaksoud]

"In the United States especially, his example and voyages answered an unceasing need for self-definition and Identity. Beginning in the eighteenth century, his name was given to the capital of South Carolina, The Capital of Ohio, and the mighty Columbus River in the Pacific Northwest. Through an act of Congress in 1871, the site of the nations capital was named the District of Columbia, New York City has Columbia University, Columbus Circle, and Columbus Avenue."~Laurence Bergreen

 

His marble statue sits atop a seventy-foot granite column rising above Columbus Circle. At its base it proclaims;

 

To

Christopher Columbus

The Italians Resident in America,

Scoffed at Before,

During the Voyage Menaced,

After It Chained,

As Generous As Oppressed,

To the World He Gave a World

 

To me Columbus's voyages constitute one of the greatest adventure stories in history. He was not the first here to America, but it was after him that the world was forever different. It was because of his voyages is what permanently implanted the reality of the New World and was the beginning of the setting in motion consequences that has changed the world. So yes I believe the scriptural account in the Book of Mormon fits him quite well.

 

I believe in spite of all that he did and what we find reprehensible in our presentist view, he was a spiritual man.

Um, it is actually the Columbia River.

[Anijen]

I would say that the fawning praise you cite above is a better example of presentism. He was a man of his times, a sailor who hired out his services to bring riches in trade (spices and such) to the West. I don't see any reason to exalt him above others who did the same thing at the same time. His claim to fame is an accidental discovery of the America, after which he behaved exactly the same way any other conqueror in Spain or elsewhere would have done. I don't think we should demonize him, but I also don't see any reason to proclaim him to be a righteous, spiritual man.

I do not exalt him, rather I agree with church leaders who also believed him to be a spiritual man. I too am a student of history and I know about his flaws. I would submit to you to read about him by a world class expert on Columbus, read Columbus the Four Voyages by Bergreen he does not leave out anything of his history and even he [bergreen] believes Columbus has been given a bad reputation and does not deserve half of the bad things so called experts [and Latin majors] say about him.

 

It is the latest popularity of emerging historians to give Columbus a bad name wanting a shortened path to some popularity (I say notoriety) and tenure. The best and brightest of these scholars have yet to agree, although they know of the treatment of Indians they are reluctant to take away all the good  he also did, and there is no argument that after Columbus the world was forever changed. 

 

I believe he was and is a spiritual man. I have read his journals (translated copies of course) and take them as the every best of primary sources one can obtain. His own words show his reliance on the Spirit.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't see him as a villian. Just very flawed like the rest of us. However he did have plenty of chutzpah. He didn't know where he was going; He didn't know where he was when he got there; and he did it all on borrowed money.

I've sailed quite a lot in modern Sailboats, and I would be really reticent about crossing the Atlantic. Scurvy was a big problem. The blunt ended boats, and with square rigging.  I do not know when modern sailing practices began that allowed sailing more into the wind, but it does not appear as if Columbus could do that at all.

[Anijen]

Um, it is actually the Columbia River.

I know. These were not my words (note the quote marks.)  

[jkwilliams]

I do not exalt him, rather I agree with church leaders who also believed him to be a spiritual man. I too am a student of history and I know about his flaws. I would submit to you to read about him by a world class expert on Columbus, read Columbus the Four Voyages by Bergreen he does not leave out anything of his history and even he [bergreen] believes Columbus has been given a bad reputation and does not deserve half of the bad things so called experts [and Latin majors] say about him.

 

It is the latest popularity of emerging historians to give Columbus a bad name wanting a shortened path to some popularity (I say notoriety) and tenure. The best and brightest of these scholars have yet to agree, although they know of the treatment of Indians they are reluctant to take away all the good  he also did, and there is no argument that after Columbus the world was forever changed. 

 

I believe he was and is a spiritual man. I have read his journals (translated copies of course) and take them as the every best of primary sources one can obtain. His own words show his reliance on the Spirit.

 

I think people have a great capacity to reconcile their own behavior with their religious beliefs. Was Columbus pond scum? Nope. Was he a saint? Nope. Like most people, Columbus is more interesting as a real person, not a caricature.

[thesometimesaint]

Ellenmaksoud:

 

Tacking into the wind is an ancient practice.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html

Edited October 14, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Agreed. To me, a prophet's (or explorer's) character is far less important than what he accomplished. Columbus's accomplishments speak for themselves. If I could convince myself that a flawed Joseph Smith brought forth true scripture and a restored truth, I would be right there with you.

Truth uplifts and inspires...without a doubt he did. It led to one of the most successful religious movements in almost 2,000 years. Islam did so a few hundred years later, much of scripture preserved and medical advancement was saved by an Islamic scholar while the rest of the world entered the dark ages.