Just An Idea.

[EllenMaksoud]

This is just an idea. There is lots of talk about the church adapting to change; several um liberalizations in the past, and now there is talk of women having the priesthood, later SSM, later even people like me will get Temple Privileges.  Maybe we are all thinking in the wrong direction?

 

Maybe the church should roll back to the time of Brigham Young, or even the time of Joseph Smith?  Perhaps What Heavenly Father created in the first place was what he wanted and still wants? So perhaps increasing liberalization of the church is not what Heavenly Father wants for his church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

 

Just having a pain driven brain storm.

Edited September 28, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Glenn101]

This is just an idea. There is lots of talk about the church adapting to change; several um liberalizations in the past, and now there is talk of women having the priesthood, later SSM, later even people like me will get Temple Privileges.  Maybe we are all thinking in the wrong direction?

 

Maybe the church should roll back to the time of Brigham Young, or even the time of Joseph Smith?  Perhaps What Heavenly Father created in the first place was what he wanted and still wants? So perhaps increasing liberalization of the church is not what Heavenly Father wants for his church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

 

Just having a pain driven brain storm.

 

 

That is a novel idea. Actually trying to find out from God what He wants for His church!!!!! Heresy.

 

Glenn

[Tacenda]

This is just an idea. There is lots of talk about the church adapting to change; several um liberalizations in the past, and now there is talk of women having the priesthood, later SSM, later even people like me will get Temple Privileges. Maybe we are all thinking in the wrong direction?

Maybe the church should roll back to the time of Brigham Young, or even the time of Joseph Smith? Perhaps What Heavenly Father created in the first place was what he wanted and still wants? So perhaps increasing liberalization of the church is not what Heavenly Father wants for his church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Just having a pain driven brain storm.

People say that would be a church that lives polygamy for exaltation, believes blacks shouldn't hold the Priesthood, believes tall people live on the moon......

[rpn]

We believe in revelation appropriate for the times in which people lived.   Things were not all restored perfectly, because human prophets didn't understand perfectly.  (BY on the priesthood, JS and BY on whom to be sealed to, corrected by Wilford Woodruff --- polygamy was clearly a time and place instruction, as it had been anciently). 

 

If we cannot follow modern prophets, we are rejecting that the Lord speaks to such prophets.

[canard78]

People say that would be a church that lives polygamy for exaltation, believes blacks shouldn't hold the Priesthood, believes tall people live on the moon......

 

Fantastic post Tacenda

[cdowis]

People say that would be a church that lives polygamy for exaltation, believes blacks shouldn't hold the Priesthood, believes tall people live on the moon......

 

I hope you are just making a joke.

The church never taught nor "believed" that men lived on the moon.  

[Bikeemikey]

I hope you are just making a joke.

The church never taught nor "believed" that men lived on the moon.

Perhaps, as long as your happy to derail the thread into yet another debate about what constitutes "being taught by the church". Some apostles did teach that men would never get to the moon, some also taught that tall man lived on the moon.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[JLHPROF]

This is just an idea. There is lots of talk about the church adapting to change; several um liberalizations in the past, and now there is talk of women having the priesthood, later SSM, later even people like me will get Temple Privileges.  Maybe we are all thinking in the wrong direction?

 

Maybe the church should roll back to the time of Brigham Young, or even the time of Joseph Smith?  Perhaps What Heavenly Father created in the first place was what he wanted and still wants? So perhaps increasing liberalization of the church is not what Heavenly Father wants for his church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

 

Just having a pain driven brain storm.

Well, that is what the fundamentalist mormons believe and try to practice.  They justify it based on many different references:

 

Eccl 3:14 - I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

Galatians 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

TPJS 168 - He set the ordinances to be the same forever and ever, and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them...

 

TPJS 264 - The gospel has always been the same; the ordinances to fulfill its requirements the same, the officers to officiate, the same; and the signs and fruits resulting from the promises the same:

 

TPJS 308 - Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.  All must be saved on the same principles....AND...Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances.

 

Just a few quotes to support your pipe dream...even if they are the ones the fundamentalists like best.

[omni]

This is just an idea. There is lots of talk about the church adapting to change; several um liberalizations in the past, and now there is talk of women having the priesthood, later SSM, later even people like me will get Temple Privileges.  Maybe we are all thinking in the wrong direction?

 

Maybe the church should roll back to the time of Brigham Young, or even the time of Joseph Smith?  Perhaps What Heavenly Father created in the first place was what he wanted and still wants? So perhaps increasing liberalization of the church is not what Heavenly Father wants for his church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

 

Just having a pain driven brain storm.

If you want to get a little better idea of what the church was like in the early days you can visit a couple of towns in Southern Utah called Centennial Park and Colorado City. I recommend visiting in person, and then report back here on whether you like the early church or modern church better.

[cdowis]

Perhaps, as long as your happy to derail the thread into yet another debate about what constitutes "being taught by the church".

 

I can always allow absurd posts about what the church believes, or I can respond.

 

Some apostles did teach that men would never get to the moon,

 

Can you give us a list of those "apostles"?  I know only one, who freely shared his opinions in many areas.

 

some also taught that tall man lived on the moon.

 

Please share with us that list of those who "taught" this concept.  There are those who may have quoted Huntington's diary entry, which was written from third hand sources, decades after the death of Joseph Smith.  In fact, he does not really identify which Joseph Smith said it -- it was very likely the father.  Huntington is the only source for this supposed statement.

 

Again, this was never a teaching of the church to which I belong.  I realize that you would rather that I remain silent on such issues but I have researched this issue.  If you can provide us those names, I would be interested.

[JLHPROF]

If you want to get a little better idea of what the church was like in the early days you can visit a couple of towns in Southern Utah called Centennial Park and Colorado City. I recommend visiting in person, and then report back here on whether you like the early church or modern church better.

 

Well Centennial Park & Colorado City are night and day examples.  And there are many other fundamentalist mormon communities scattered about...not all of them are scary kid marrying, prairie dress wearing nutjobs.  Some really are just trying to live the doctrine from the days of Joseph & Brigham because they believe it to be more correct than the modern versions.

That is what the OP was speculating might be the right course...

[Tacenda]

Perhaps, as long as your happy to derail the thread into yet another debate about what constitutes "being taught by the church".

I can always allow absurd posts about what the church believes, or I can respond.

Some apostles did teach that men would never get to the moon,

Can you give us a list of those "apostles"? I know only one, who freely shared his opinions in many areas.

some also taught that tall man lived on the moon.

Please share with us that list of those who "taught" this concept. There are those who may have quoted Huntington's diary entry, which was written from third hand sources, decades after the death of Joseph Smith. In fact, he does not really identify which Joseph Smith said it -- it was very likely the father. Huntington is the only source for this supposed statement.

Again, this was never a teaching of the church to which I belong. I realize that you would rather that I remain silent on such issues but I have researched this issue. If you can provide us those names, I would be interested.

It was taught in the JoD, Joseph said it and Brigham backed it up. Joseph Smith Sr. even blessed Huntington that he would preach to those on the moon. Many in that day and age speculated things before they had evidence. I'm glad the LDS believe in current revelation, or we'd be stuck in a time warp. Many in the "nut job" polygamist groups believe that no man has been on the moon.

[Bikeemikey]

It was taught in the JoD, Joseph said it and Brigham backed it up. Joseph Smith Sr. even blessed Huntington that he would preach to those on the moon. Many in that day and age speculated things before they had evidence. I'm glad the LDS believe in current revelation, or we'd be stuck in a time warp. Many in the "nut job" polygamist groups believe that no man has been on the moon.

Thanks Tacenda,

I have a busy day and now do not need to spend the afternoon trying to find the info.

[EllenMaksoud]

Um well, this was just an idea I was throwing out there. Now I feel like I forgot the skillet and it is burning on the stove.

 

We are each unique and our thinking is shaped by our life experiences. I spent almost 7 years living in very conservative culture, and some things from that culture I miss, a lot !

 

I will say that as a group, Mormons are the happiest people I have ever experienced, even in the face of great pain at times.  Certain ideas in what I will call the Salt Lake Mormons (the main church) seem far too liberal to me, but I have a hard time sorting out that it was this group who reached out to me. Perhaps it would be better if I shared the rest with my shrink?

[Tacenda]

Um well, this was just an idea I was throwing out there. Now I feel like I forgot the skillet and it is burning on the stove.

We are each unique and our thinking is shaped by our life experiences. I spent almost 7 years living in very conservative culture, and some things from that culture I miss, a lot !

I will say that as a group, Mormons are the happiest people I have ever experienced, even in the face of great pain at times. Certain ideas in what I will call the Salt Lake Mormons (the main church) seem far too liberal to me, but I have a hard time sorting out that it was this group who reached out to me. Perhaps it would be better if I shared the rest with my shrink?

No, keep reminding me that Salt Lake Mormons are happy! Edited September 28, 2013 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

I hope you are just making a joke.

The church never taught nor "believed" that men lived on the moon.  

 

True, the Church never taught that but Brigham Young did believe it. He also believed that men lived on the sun.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Brigham_Young/Teachings/Moon_and_sun_are_inhabited

Edited September 28, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[EllenMaksoud]

No, keep reminding me that Salt Lake Mormons are happy!

Well, I experienced Mormons in Kirtland, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Provo, UT , Halfway, Oregon, and all around Portland, Or and southern Washington, but have not experienced Mormons in and around SLC, except for Huntsville, Ut. and everyone I have met have been extremely nice.   I recently found out about First, Second and Third Ward folk, and wish them the best but will likely not seek fellowship with them.

 

After being judged, may hellfire rain down upon my head if I judge others.

 

I know Mormons who are upset about various different issues, but none of them affect me directly. The church is what it is, and I will not campaign to change it to meet my needs. Here is something that was shared wtih me and it has been on my mind a lot.

 

But on a more personal level, this might turn out to be a blessing.  Imagine your healing when you no longer feel the retraumatization whenever you experience new challenges.   Imagine your healing when you never again feel victimized by behavior of others because you really believe in your own divine worth.   That is what walking with God through this hardship could bring you, if you can trust enough to place your hand in His and endure to the end.   If the LDS church is His, then He either approves or He accepts that you can handle it, grow from it, for some reason if He lets it continue.   He has that level of confidence in you and you can have it too.   I testify that it is His church, and He knows and loves you, and that you are as personally valuable and intact without the temple blessings that you desire, as you would be with them.  

 

I will serve as I am and be happy.

[EllenMaksoud]

We believe in revelation appropriate for the times in which people lived.   Things were not all restored perfectly, because human prophets didn't understand perfectly.  (BY on the priesthood, JS and BY on whom to be sealed to, corrected by Wilford Woodruff --- polygamy was clearly a time and place instruction, as it had been anciently). 

 

If we cannot follow modern prophets, we are rejecting that the Lord speaks to such prophets.

I believe in the modern prophets. I do think that the church has been the victim of systematic discrimination and has been deprived of it's constitutional rights. In a highly politicized arena the prophets have been driven to make certain decisions to insure the very survival of our way of life.

[canard78]

I hope you are just making a joke.

The church never taught nor "believed" that men lived on the moon.  

 

So, by implication, you're acknowledging that the ancient church did teach the first two? That they believed polygamy was a requirement for exaltation and that blacks should not (and would not) hold the priesthood.

 

Elder McConkie said:

 

 

There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things... Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

 

The prophets sometimes speak with a limited understanding. Including when talking about polygamy and blacks having the priesthood. And men on the moon.

 

Here are some church publications with mention of men living on the moon:

 

The Young Woman's Journal. Page: 263

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/YWJ/id/11790

 

Journal of Discourses. Volume 13, page 271

http://journalofdiscourses.com/13/31

 

Frankly I wish the speculation about men on the moon (and to be fair it's little more than speculation in Brigham's piece) was the worst of it. If that was the only blot on the past we'd have a much better time of it. I do sometimes wonder why the restoration had to be such a messy process.

 

I take solace in the words of the scriptures. I take great solace and encouragement from prophets being openly and unashamedly aware of their limitations. Joseph Smith said “I do not want you to think that I’m very righteous, for I am not. There was one good man, and his name was Jesus” (Documentary History of the Church, 5:401)

 

We should accept and expect scripture and the words of prophets to have faults and mistakes. By divine design, humans make mistakes. Prophets are not exempt. They have never claimed to be and we should not expect it either. Mormon declares as much in the title page of the Book of Mormon: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men." The opening section of the Doctrine and Covenants (1:34) similarly says:  "...these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language…"

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, if there are men on the Moon, they must be far too busy to speak to us.  Perhaps it is best that I not know of some of the early writings.

[Tacenda]

Well, if there are men on the Moon, they must be far too busy to speak to us. Perhaps it is best that I not know of some of the early writings.

With all the stars in the galaxy why did they pick places like the moon and sun? Was it because of the steps in progression...Telestial, Terrestial, & Celestial? Are the Sun and Moon the Terrestial and Telestial. Stars are all the worlds of the Celestial kingdom? Okay, I'll shut up. Have an awesome day Ellen!!

[Garden Girl]

It was taught in the JoD, Joseph said it and Brigham backed it up. Joseph Smith Sr. even blessed Huntington that he would preach to those on the moon. Many in that day and age speculated things before they had evidence. I'm glad the LDS believe in current revelation, or we'd be stuck in a time warp. Many in the "nut job" polygamist groups believe that no man has been on the moon.

I believe that some revelations were not clearly understood, and personal opinions and cultural aspects at the time could have played a role, i.e., blacks and the priesthood when you consider the place of blacks in society of that day.  I believe subsequent revelation corrected that error...

I chuckle about the "men on the moon" aspect... again, the inspiration and/or revelation was undoubtedly not clearly understood.  Can you imagine how preposterous the idea of men on the moon seemed in context of the times.  People scoff that Joseph had such a thought and expressed it.

 But think about it... here we are in our day talking about establishing permanent space stations on the moon, etc.  After that, what?  Permanent colonies on the moon?  And after colonies what?  Communities?  I can see advances that could eventually increase populations that would dictate that missionaries be sent to the moon... Those concepts that everyone has scoffed at could very well come to fruition... 

And as far as temple ordinances staying the same... our current ordinances are fundamentally the same... the basic principle is the same... the procedure for administering the ordinances may have been streamlined.  An example would be the ordinance of washing and annointing... it is my understanding from early journals of women that for the washing there was an actual tub and women sat in the tub naked and were literally washed.  I'm thankful that while the general purpose and doctrine of washing  remains the same, the revelation concerning the procedure has made the ordinance less intrusive and so much more spiritual and meaningful...

 

GG

[cdowis]

It was taught in the JoD, Joseph said it and Brigham backed it up.

 

Please stop spouting nonsense.

 

Cut out the assertions and give us the exact quotes from from Jospeh  Smioth JR, and the quote from Brigham Young.  Let's see what he actually said.  

 

Quote the ENTIRE citation,  about the sun, etc., and put it into context.

 

This is a formal CFR.

 

Joseph Smith Sr. even blessed Huntington that he would preach to those on the moon.

 

 Thank you for your admission.  JS Jr did not say it.  

 

JS SR may have simply read it in the newspapers at the time.

 

Sorry about the technical problem with the quoting function.

 

Edited September 28, 2013 by cdowis

[canard78]

Cut out the assertions and give us the exact quotes from from Jospeh Smioth JR, and the quote from Brigham Young. Let's see what he actually said.

Quote the ENTIRE citation, about the sun, etc., and put it into context.

Sorry about the technical problem with the quoting function.

I know you've CFR'd Tacenda, but I pasted the the two scans of the church publications about men on the moon and linked to the original document a page back.

I also pointed out that moon men speculation is of very little consequence anyway in the context of some of the other stuff I'm glad we don't teach any more. I know I "speak with a limited understanding," so I accept they are in the same position. I'm coming to a position of both celebrating the good said/done by prophets and accepting that they are an imperfect filters through which living water flows. But it's still a water I enjoy drinking from.

[Tacenda]

I know you've CFR'd Tacenda, but I pasted the the two scans of the church publications about men on the moon and linked to the original document a page back.

I also pointed out that moon men speculation is of very little consequence anyway in the context of some of the other stuff I'm glad we don't teach any more. I know I "speak with a limited understanding," so I accept they are in the same position. I'm coming to a position of both celebrating the good said/done by prophets and accepting that they are an imperfect filters through which living water flows. But it's still a water I enjoy drinking from.

Thanks Canard. I PM'd him that my computer is in need of a repair so I'm unable to link, or c/p. But referred him to Fairmormon. And I agree about the leaders not being perfect filters of messages from God, we as members would be far too enabled and weak not to come to Christ on our own also. Though personally I'm scared to death not to rely solely on the church or prophets/apostles/bishops/r.s. presidents/v.t's, teachers for it.