The Atonement

[EllenMaksoud]

Some remarks I saw in the discussion of the one year waiting period for a Temple wedding made me realize something. Who gets to judge the suitability of one to enter the Temple? Who gets to say when one is suitable?  Who gets to judge when one is repentant enough to do so?  What sin is so severe that it will keep a person from the temple? Who gets to say what circumstances are extenuating enough to forgive? The Atonement is supposed to forgive all sin. Who gets to say what sin falls through the cracks and limits a  person's progression in the church?

 

These sorts of discussions feel like being sexually molested all over again. They are truly re-traumatizing. I repented for sins that I did not willingly commit and now that repentance is seen as not sufficient to gain me access to the Temple. Some of you will blithely sit back and say that patience is the key, or that even really bad sinners will get the Telestial kingdom. Have you no idea what so ever how much that sort of degradation costs the repentant?

 

So, far I have been utterly faithful to the covenants of the church, and will remain so, but in spite of that, I now realize that I will eventually just give up and walk away with a broken heart. I'll never be good enough for Mormon Heaven.

Edited September 21, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[SamIam]

Some remarks I saw in the discussion of the one year waiting period for a Temple wedding made me realize something. Who gets to judge the suitability of one to enter the Temple? Who gets to say when one is suitable?  Who gets to judge when one is repentant enough to do so?  What sin is so severe that it will keep a person from the temple? Who gets to say what circumstances are extenuating enough to forgive? The Atonement is supposed to forgive all sin. Who gets to say what sin falls through the cracks and limits a  person's progression in the church?

 

These sorts of discussions feel like being sexually molested all over again. They are truly re-traumatizing. I repented for sins that I did not willingly commit and now that repentance is seen as not sufficient to gain me access to the Temple. Some of you will blithely sit back and say that patience is the key, or that even really bad sinners will get the Telestial kingdom. Have you no idea what so ever how much that sort of degradation costs the repentant?

 

So, far I have been utterly faithful to the covenants of the church, and will remain so, but in spite of that, I now realize that I will eventually just give up and walk away with a broken heart. I'll never be good enough for Mormon Heaven.

Members of Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies are the ones that interview for temple access. You should contact your Bishop and seek to create a plan and time frame of when and what needs to be accomplished to receive a temple recommend.  Usually, they will work with you very closely on establishing a process of preparation that ensures the experience is the most fulfilling that you can achieve on your first visit and which will continue to expand into a continuous pattern of subsequent meaningful visits thereafter. 

 

However, the issue you bring up as has little to do with entering the temple or even the issues that may mark the path of gaining access to the temple.  

 

Forgiveness is but one aspect of a much larger gift that you are seeking and that is the gift of healing. A gift that is only accessible through the atonement of Christ. However, I would save you my thoughts on the matter and encourage you instead to consider upon a talk given by Richard G. Scott 20 years ago.

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/04/healing-the-tragic-scars-of-abuse?lang=eng&query=healing

[ERayR]

Some remarks I saw in the discussion of the one year waiting period for a Temple wedding made me realize something. Who gets to judge the suitability of one to enter the Temple? Who gets to say when one is suitable?  Who gets to judge when one is repentant enough to do so?  What sin is so severe that it will keep a person from the temple? Who gets to say what circumstances are extenuating enough to forgive? The Atonement is supposed to forgive all sin. Who gets to say what sin falls through the cracks and limits a  person's progression in the church?

 

These sorts of discussions feel like being sexually molested all over again. They are truly re-traumatizing. I repented for sins that I did not willingly commit and now that repentance is seen as not sufficient to gain me access to the Temple. Some of you will blithely sit back and say that patience is the key, or that even really bad sinners will get the Telestial kingdom. Have you no idea what so ever how much that sort of degradation costs the repentant?

 

So, far I have been utterly faithful to the covenants of the church, and will remain so, but in spite of that, I now realize that I will eventually just give up and walk away with a broken heart. I'll never be good enough for Mormon Heaven.

 

Who gets to judge?  You do.  All you have to do is answer the temple recommend questions correctly. 

[Calm]

Members of Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies are the ones that interview for temple access. 

 

 

Samlam, Ellen's situation is more involved (it is more analogous to seeking to be sealed to multiple men at the same time while living...special circumstances that required 1st Presidency approval in addition to approval by bishops and SPs).  She has been going through this for sometime and probably has been told how to go through the process multiple times (I've been involved in a few of the conversations).  The problem deals with something that cannot be changed.  There is nothing that needs to be prepared for.  It is whether or not she can go as things now stand because they will stand that way in the future, they will not be changed.

Edited September 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Who gets to judge?  You do.  All you have to do is answer the temple recommend questions correctly. 

Again...not exactly in Ellen's case as far as temple attendance goes, but I don't think it is necessary to discuss the details on the board.

 

OTOH, I do think Ellen may be misunderstanding that perhaps not being allowed to attend the temple in this life would in any way deprive her of exaltation if she is worthy of it in God's eyes or that LDS would believe that she will be kept out because of something that can't be changed in this life, but can be healed fully due to the Atonement in the next one.

 

In the past, many single women weren't allowed to attend the temple simply because they weren't married.  I see Ellen's situation in much the same way.  These women weren't deprived in any sense in the next life, receiving full blessings of exaltation...and it would be an unusual member who didn't anticipate them being able to....and eventually policy was changed to allow single women to do so even if they don't go on missions.  It is likely imo that as we learn more about certain biological conditions, restrictions due to those will be removed as well.

 

My great aunt always wanted to go to the temple and get her endowment, but being a single woman who did not go on a mission, never did as they changed the policy a few years after her death.  No one who knew her ever believed she was destined for anywhere save the highest level of the CK to be one with the Lord because of her giving over her life in service to others (which is one reason why she never got married, always choosing to sacrifice her needs rather than others).  It was very hard at times for her to accept this, especially when treated at times as a second class citizen by her sisters who were married even though she wasn't married in part because she took up a task so they didn't have to--caring for their parents---but I do believe she would have felt that it would have been the greater loss to walk away because the policy wasn't in place for her to get the blessings of the temple as it is now.  

 

Being told to be patient about change when one believes there is no sound reason for any delay can be almost unendurable and it is hard to allow others to have such an impact on one's life.  Being told that life is unfair and one has to just endure from those who don't appear to have much, if anything, they have to endure the loss of isn't pleasant either, but what really matters not others and what they are telling us, but what God is telling us.  And for me, I have been told that all the blessings I have been deprived of through no fault of my own (such as just halfway functioning as a normal human being) will be given me in such a way that it will be as if the deprivation never occurred.  The Atonement is both eternal and infinite and applies retroactively so to speak, erasing all differences once mortality is past and we are resurrected and become one with God.

Edited September 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

Thank you Calmoriah. You come pretty close to understanding my feelings.

 

To me, the idea of waiting til after death to get the benefits is just a comfortable little cop out by those who will likely never get it, this side of the grave.

 

I am in the church because of faith and thankfulness for what Heavenly Father has already done for me, not his future promises. I think that the rulings against me are unfair and those making those rulings ... I pray that you will not have to partially live my life so you do understand.

 

To help you in this: I remember my first hair cut, by an enraged and irrational man that beat me more for crying because he terrified me. I was 4. I remember him chasing me down and beating me in spite f my cries for mercy. At times I thought he killed me and would be surprised to wake up after he was finished. I can remember being worked until I was in a hospital with an MD that was so mad that he told my step father that if he ever saw me again, he was going to the police. This was in the late 50's. I was 11. I can remember the horror of believing that I was somehow his ******* child, and the comfort of meeting my real father when I was 24. I looked just like him except for obvious differences.

 

I remember his accusing me of being homosexual, the disdane, the beatings, the assaults. In reality he was so wrong. Please tell me in your infinite wisdom dear members of the GA, how do I verbally defend myself against a man who hits me every time I talk?

 

In spite of those circumstances, in spite of the religious, in spite of the neglect of the police, I grew up and by my own will decided that at least I learned how NOT to live life !  Everything I did from the day I left home, was to try to do right, to try to please a God that I did not know at all. It was by pure dumb stubbornness that I vowed to be everything that my stepfather said I was not !

 

My whole adult life for me was an act because I had no idea what so ever what I should be, should feel, should do.

 

I skipped my life.

 

Now it feels like I am punished for things that I had no control over and you the GA incorrectly assess my situation and prolong it.

 

I came to the Mormon church because the Holy Spirit dragged me in there.  It was the Holy Spirit that healed me of OH so many things, not some Elder, Brother, or General Authority. I'm being punished for things that were not my fault and I can't even get a hearing on the matter !

 

I've just been concentrating on doing what I am supposed to do, being obedient to the covenants, taking the sacrament,  on following the will of Heavenly Father ...  I'm sorry I am so mad, so mad, I can't live with myself, I am so mad. How can you continue to exacerbate the pain I have experienced already, how can you !!!

 

I have not advanced any agenda but the agenda of the Mormon church. There have been not acts or statements by me to support any agenda that is hostile to the churches present policies, and I can't even be heard, I can't get a hearing, and it hurts so much ! It breaks my heart !

 

I'm so mad !!! Now I'm going back to bed !

[ERayR]

Again...not exactly in Ellen's case as far as temple attendance goes, but I don't think it is necessary to discuss the details on the board.

 

 

And the details are probably not something I need to know..  I do hope she can work out the things that can be worked out and be able to accept and understand that which must wait for a future time.

[ERayR]

Thank you Calmoriah. You come pretty close to understanding my feelings.

 

To me, the idea of waiting til after death to get the benefits is just a comfortable little cop out by those who will likely never get it, this side of the grave.

 

I am in the church because of faith and thankfulness for what Heavenly Father has already done for me, not his future promises. I think that the rulings against me are unfair and those making those rulings ... I pray that you will not have to partially live my life so you do understand.

 

To help you in this: I remember my first hair cut, by an enraged and irrational man that beat me more for crying because he terrified me. I was 4. I remember him chasing me down and beating me in spite f my cries for mercy. At times I thought he killed me and would be surprised to wake up after he was finished. I can remember being worked until I was in a hospital with an MD that was so mad that he told my step father that if he ever saw me again, he was going to the police. This was in the late 50's. I was 11. I can remember the horror of believing that I was somehow his ******* child, and the comfort of meeting my real father when I was 24. I looked just like him except for obvious differences.

 

I remember his accusing me of being homosexual, the disdane, the beatings, the assaults. In reality he was so wrong. Please tell me in your infinite wisdom dear members of the GA, how do I verbally defend myself against a man who hits me every time I talk?

 

In spite of those circumstances, in spite of the religious, in spite of the neglect of the police, I grew up and by my own will decided that at least I learned how NOT to live life !  Everything I did from the day I left home, was to try to do right, to try to please a God that I did not know at all. It was by pure dumb stubbornness that I vowed to be everything that my stepfather said I was not !

 

My whole adult life for me was an act because I had no idea what so ever what I should be, should feel, should do.

 

I skipped my life.

 

Now it feels like I am punished for things that I had no control over and you the GA incorrectly assess my situation and prolong it.

 

I came to the Mormon church because the Holy Spirit dragged me in there.  It was the Holy Spirit that healed me of OH so many things, not some Elder, Brother, or General Authority. I'm being punished for things that were not my fault and I can't even get a hearing on the matter !

 

I've just been concentrating on doing what I am supposed to do, being obedient to the covenants, taking the sacrament,  on following the will of Heavenly Father ...  I'm sorry I am so mad, so mad, I can't live with myself, I am so mad. How can you continue to exacerbate the pain I have experienced already, how can you !!!

 

I have not advanced any agenda but the agenda of the Mormon church. There have been not acts or statements by me to support any agenda that is hostile to the churches present policies, and I can't even be heard, I can't get a hearing, and it hurts so much ! It breaks my heart !

 

I'm so mad !!! Now I'm going back to bed !

 

My problems, which are sometimes seriously chaffing to me, pale in comparison to a life of abuse and my heart goes out to you.  I do not know why some have a life of hell while some enjoy peace and plenty.  I only know as surely as I know anything that God and Christ will make it right.  This is a knowledge that is all that carries me through some days.

[Tacenda]

Who gets to judge? You do. All you have to do is answer the temple recommend questions correctly.

Thumbs up, the questions are all yes and no questions. When or if Ellen moves, maybe then she'll answer all the questions right.

[SamIam]

Samlam, Ellen's situation is more involved (it is more analogous to seeking to be sealed to multiple men at the same time while living...special circumstances that required 1st Presidency approval in addition to approval by bishops and SPs).  She has been going through this for sometime and probably has been told how to go through the process multiple times (I've been involved in a few of the conversations).  The problem deals with something that cannot be changed.  There is nothing that needs to be prepared for.  It is whether or not she can go as things now stand because they will stand that way in the future, they will not be changed.

While your observations are meritorious, and I do not seek to detract from them, but there is no need to hear any aspect of the story.  The OP is on attending the temple , but hear what she is saying between the lines and it is about continued suffering. There is enough pain and anguish in her tone and always has been to see that healing is the point altogether. When one is healed they have granted them at the same time the necessary understandings to endure until the end when the wrongs can be righted. Healing does not have a tone of I'm going to quite trying.  That said it is clear that the partial healing she has experienced has in its way gotten her this far.  She has found, even from this partial healing, strength to over come things she once despaired of and thought never to overcome.

 

There is hope in healing, it is never a case of there is nothing you can do, or this situation is too complex. If paradigm changes need to be made in ones perspectives healing the spirit provides enough to do so.  

 

Ellen, read Elder Scott's talk. It has valuable insight that really is just a means of getting someone to realize Christ can overcome where men (or women)can see no means to do so. 

Edited September 22, 2013 by SamIam

[Calm]

I was not responding to your comments about healing, but your comments about the temple only, with members of the bishopric and stake presidency deciding as well as creating a time frame to prepare to go. Both circumstances do not apply in her case.

Edited September 22, 2013 by calmoriah

[SamIam]

I was not responding to your comments about healing, but your comments about the temple only, with members of the bishopric and stake presidency deciding as well as creating a time frame to prepare to go. Both circumstances do not apply in her case.

I understand.  I actually only added that part after I had written the other about Elder Scott's talk to simply address the questions of the OP.  My real answer was what followed the mention of the Bishop and SP that the issue is healing. 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

Kindest regards.

[Calm]

Just so no one worries, Ellen is taking a break.

[rpn]

I get why you are distraught.  But your argument that you will "never be worthy of a mormon heaven" is simply an inaccurate  (and self-sabotaging statement.   And your circumstance has nothing whatever to do with worthiness in the first place.  I predict you are going to do what Helvecio Martin, Elijah Able, Jane Manning James and many others who have been denied temple blessings that other church members enjoy, due to issues unrelated to their personal worthiness and unrelated to their personal choice have done and continue to do.   I predict you will hold to the truth and live the way you are learning you should live.   Instead of mourning what is not yet, you will look for what is.  You may continue to petition for a rehearing from time to time --- Sister James both did that every time there was a new prophet.   You may continue to pray that leaders hearts will be softened with new understanding.  But you will simply continue doing what you are allowed to do in service to your Savior and His work, consistent with the Light He has given you..   And, if you allow, you will find peace.  

 

Maybe over time you will also come to appreciate what you have learned during the wait.   Rage at the lamp, but don't be short sighted enough to snuff it out.

 

1.  
2. “Fear not, I am with thee, oh, be not dismayed,
   For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;
   I’ll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
   Upheld by My gracious, omnipotent hand.
3. “When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
   The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;
   For I will be with thee thy trouble to bless,
   And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
4. “When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
   My grace, all-sufficient, shall be thy supply;
   The flame shall not harm thee; I only design
   Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.
5. “The soul that on Jesus doth lean for repose,
   I will not, I will not, desert to his foes;
   That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
   I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.”

PS.  Your thread title is misleading.  This has nothing to do with the atonement and everything to do with uncertainty, and science, and administration.  

[savedbygrace]

Thank you Calmoriah. You come pretty close to understanding my feelings.

 

To me, the idea of waiting til after death to get the benefits is just a comfortable little cop out by those who will likely never get it, this side of the grave.

 

I am in the church because of faith and thankfulness for what Heavenly Father has already done for me, not his future promises. I think that the rulings against me are unfair and those making those rulings ... I pray that you will not have to partially live my life so you do understand.

 

To help you in this: I remember my first hair cut, by an enraged and irrational man that beat me more for crying because he terrified me. I was 4. I remember him chasing me down and beating me in spite f my cries for mercy. At times I thought he killed me and would be surprised to wake up after he was finished. I can remember being worked until I was in a hospital with an MD that was so mad that he told my step father that if he ever saw me again, he was going to the police. This was in the late 50's. I was 11. I can remember the horror of believing that I was somehow his ******* child, and the comfort of meeting my real father when I was 24. I looked just like him except for obvious differences.

 

I remember his accusing me of being homosexual, the disdane, the beatings, the assaults. In reality he was so wrong. Please tell me in your infinite wisdom dear members of the GA, how do I verbally defend myself against a man who hits me every time I talk?

 

In spite of those circumstances, in spite of the religious, in spite of the neglect of the police, I grew up and by my own will decided that at least I learned how NOT to live life !  Everything I did from the day I left home, was to try to do right, to try to please a God that I did not know at all. It was by pure dumb stubbornness that I vowed to be everything that my stepfather said I was not !

 

My whole adult life for me was an act because I had no idea what so ever what I should be, should feel, should do.

 

I skipped my life.

 

Now it feels like I am punished for things that I had no control over and you the GA incorrectly assess my situation and prolong it.

 

I came to the Mormon church because the Holy Spirit dragged me in there.  It was the Holy Spirit that healed me of OH so many things, not some Elder, Brother, or General Authority. I'm being punished for things that were not my fault and I can't even get a hearing on the matter !

 

I've just been concentrating on doing what I am supposed to do, being obedient to the covenants, taking the sacrament,  on following the will of Heavenly Father ...  I'm sorry I am so mad, so mad, I can't live with myself, I am so mad. How can you continue to exacerbate the pain I have experienced already, how can you !!!

 

I have not advanced any agenda but the agenda of the Mormon church. There have been not acts or statements by me to support any agenda that is hostile to the churches present policies, and I can't even be heard, I can't get a hearing, and it hurts so much ! It breaks my heart !

 

I'm so mad !!! Now I'm going back to bed !

 

Ellen, I feel for you, you are obviously hurting, but you are still in my prayers. I was reading the Epistle to the Romans today, how beautiful it  is. May I share some of ST Paul's words with you?

' For I am certain of this; neither death nor life. no angel, no prince, nothing that exists, nothing still to come, not any power, or height or depth, nor any created thing, can ever come between us and the love of God made visible in Christ Jesus our Lord'  Romans 8; 38-39

Ellen Christ has atoned for your sins and mine, he has redeemed you through his blood shed for all mankind. I have in mind now that wonderful parable of the prodigal son who took his inheritance and wasted it. On returning repentant to his father, he was willing to be a servant in his father's house if only his father could forgive him. His father saw him trudging wearily across the fields, and what did he do? He hoiked up his garments and this venerable man belted undignified over his fields and clasped this son to him. Then he had a calf killed and celebrated his son's return. Who is this son? You are Ellen, as am I, Who is the father, God,  and there is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner than over a host of righteous souls. Trust God to forgive you, Christ died for us while we were' yet in our sins' he didn't wait for us to become righteous first.

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen, I feel for you, you are obviously hurting, but you are still in my prayers. I was reading the Epistle to the Romans today, how beautiful it  is. May I share some of ST Paul's words with you?

' For I am certain of this; neither death nor life. no angel, no prince, nothing that exists, nothing still to come, not any power, or height or depth, nor any created thing, can ever come between us and the love of God made visible in Christ Jesus our Lord'  Romans 8; 38-39

Ellen Christ has atoned for your sins and mine, he has redeemed you through his blood shed for all mankind. I have in mind now that wonderful parable of the prodigal son who took his inheritance and wasted it. On returning repentant to his father, he was willing to be a servant in his father's house if only his father could forgive him. His father saw him trudging wearily across the fields, and what did he do? He hoiked up his garments and this venerable man belted undignified over his fields and clasped this son to him. Then he had a calf killed and celebrated his son's return. Who is this son? You are Ellen, as am I, Who is the father, God,  and there is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner than over a host of righteous souls. Trust God to forgive you, Christ died for us while we were' yet in our sins' he didn't wait for us to become righteous first.

Thank you. In my mind, once one accepts the atonement, then ALL sin is forgiven.  However, I came very close to crossing the line in complaining about my not having Temple Privileges yet. I do not even know that the GA and I disagree because they simply have said nothing.  I've been disrespectful of them, and I am sorry. Sometimes my very strong feelings on the matter overpower my thinking. No one says anything, and sometimes it feels like neglect. Yes, my psychology is really twisted.

 

In truth, the Mormons have been extremely good to me, and I have experienced supernatural healing that perhaps even the Mormons themselves do not believe. I wish the details of my past did not have to remain private so I could explain.

 

And, in truth, so far, I can do everything that Heavenly Father has called me to do without a Temple Recommend, and perhaps if I had one, it would lead to prideful actions on my part.

 

Not making excuses, but perhaps this outbreak and complaining by me is because I'm really ill feeling, and hurt all over and...

[Freedom]

Ellen,

As we have agreed before, one day we will do lunch and cry on each other's shoulders and part as eternal friends.  

[changed]

I'll never be good enough for Mormon Heaven.

I think at some point, every honest person has felt hopelessly unworthy, but don't let those negative thoughts run over you!  You know where all those negative thoughts come from - they are not from God, so you can push them right out of your mind.

[theplains]

However, I came very close to crossing the line in complaining about my not having Temple Privileges yet.

 

 

Don't worry about it. The New Testament disciples did not need temple recommends to visit

the temple. The physical temple and the animal sacrifices were done away with (as the central

place of worship) in the New Covenant. Believers are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

Some women in non-Mormon churches even complain that they cannot be ordained as

priests, not knowing that they already belong to the royal priesthood of believers.

 

Also, "temple recommends" are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price,

or the D&C.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Calm]

Don't worry about it. The New Testament disciples did not need temple recommends to visit

the temple. The physical temple and the animal sacrifices were done away with (as the central

place of worship) in the New Covenant. Believers are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

Some women in non-Mormon churches even complain that they cannot be ordained as

priests, not knowing that they already belong to the royal priesthood of believers.

 

Also, "temple recommends" are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price,

or the D&C.

 

Regards,

Jim

To be clear, Ellen, just in case you are not aware of it, theplains is not LDS.

Edited September 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[savedbygrace]

Thank you. In my mind, once one accepts the atonement, then ALL sin is forgiven.  However, I came very close to crossing the line in complaining about my not having Temple Privileges yet. I do not even know that the GA and I disagree because they simply have said nothing.  I've been disrespectful of them, and I am sorry. Sometimes my very strong feelings on the matter overpower my thinking. No one says anything, and sometimes it feels like neglect. Yes, my psychology is really twisted.

 

In truth, the Mormons have been extremely good to me, and I have experienced supernatural healing that perhaps even the Mormons themselves do not believe. I wish the details of my past did not have to remain private so I could explain.

 

And, in truth, so far, I can do everything that Heavenly Father has called me to do without a Temple Recommend, and perhaps if I had one, it would lead to prideful actions on my part.

 

Not making excuses, but perhaps this outbreak and complaining by me is because I'm really ill feeling, and hurt all over and...

 

Be still and know that I am God. Rest in that assurance. I know the temple recommend is important to you, so be patient and trust that it may happen. In the meantime keep the quotes from Romans in your heart, in fact read the whole epistle as it is all about forgiveness, know that God has forgiven you and then maybe you can forgive yourself, because I feel you are holding on to stuff and re punishing yourself needlessly. Maybe this is why you are so devastated by the decision not to allow you into the temple, which has probably reinforced your residual guilt. God love you Ellen, he certainly does, rest in his arms.

[LordUther]

Pay special attention to the 3rd verse :-)