Nancy Rigdon

[why me]

On a different board there is a discussion of Nancy Rigdon. Of course, Joseph is being raked through the coals over her. However, I have found what her brother said of it.

 

Here is what Nancy's brother said of the incident:

Concerning this incident, J. Wickliffe Rigdon, Nancy’s brother, related:

Joseph the Prophet, at the City of Nauvoo, Illinois… made a proposition to my sister, Nancy Rigdon, to become his wife. It happened in this way: Nancy had gone to Church, meeting being held in a grove near the temple lot on which the “Mormons” were then erecting a temple, an old lady friend who lived alone invited her, which Nancy did. When they got to the house and had taken their bonnets off, the old lady began to talk to her about the new doctrine of polygamy which was then being taught, telling Nancy, during the conversation, that it was a surprise to her when she first heard it, but that she had since come to believe it to be true. While they were talking Joseph Smith the Prophet came into the house and joined them, and the old lady immediately left the room. It was then that Joseph made the proposal of marriage to my sister. Nancy flatly refused him, saying if she ever got married she would marry a single man or none at all, and thereupon took her bonnet and went home, leaving Joseph at the old lady’s houses. Nancy told father and mother of it. The story got out and it became the talk of the town that Joseph had made a proposition to Nancy Rigdon to become his wife, and that she refused him. A few days after the occurrence Joseph Smith came to my father’s house and talked the matter over with the family [and] my sister… The feelings manifested by our family on this occasion were anything but brotherly or sisterly, more especially on the part of Nancy, as she felt that she had been insulted. A day or two later Joseph Smith returned to my father’s house, when matters were satisfactorily adjusted between them and there the matter ended.[2]

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSI ... auvoo.html

And then this from the same site:

Summary:

It appears that Joseph Smith may have discussed plural marriage with Nancy Rigdon. However, evidence is lacking that Bennett was involved in any way or was positioned to assist the Prophet in the endeavor.

Available evidence demonstrates that John C. Bennett never once discussed the topic of plural and eternal marriage with Joseph Smith. Any conversation alleged by Bennett that reflects a "polygamy insider" position must be filtered through this acknowledgement.

So what is the problem? I see no problem. It seems that Bennett was not being truthful. And it seems that all ended well between Joseph and the Rigdon's. Am I missing something? Are the critics overdoing this event?

[BCSpace]

Richard Van Wagoner's book Mormon Polygamy reportedly says:

 

"Inevitably, Nancy Rigdon, Sarah Pratt, and Martha Brotherton saw their reputations impugned by an avalanche of slander. The prophet labeled Sarah a '[whore] from her mother's breast.' Martha Brotherton was branded a 'mean harlot.' while Nancy was tagged a 'poor miserable girl out of the very slough of prostitution" (p.299).

 

What is the actual source for this?

[Calm]

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSImproperProposals/16ImproperProposalsAccusations/SarahPratt2.html

An anti-Mormon newspaper, the Sangamo Journal, quoted Joseph Smith as saying Sarah was a “[whore] from her mother’s breast.”  (July 29, 1842.)

 

 

 

 

Ye wise, and virtuous, ye Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, yes, all ye professing christians of Illinois; Judges, Generals, and officers from the highest to the lowest, in the state, and the rest of ye editors, too, listen, and give heed to the voice of your leader, your compatriot, your brother American! aye, pay attention this once if never again! IfHE (Joseph Smith) HAD RESISTED, WE SHOULD HAVE HAD THE SPORT OF DRIVING HIM AND HIS WORTHY CLAN OUT OF THE STATE en masse.Shades and spirits of the Revolution! is this one of the legatees of liberty? Is this one of the watchmen to conduct an American press, and give tone to public opinion? If so the silence of his brother christians will manifest it; and the silence of the public functionaries will acknowledge it; and the silence of the press will sanction it, -- and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, will be left to the mercy of God and God only! Aye! while Rhode Island is destroying her own offspring like voracious swine, while mobs are shedding blood and burning houses in Piladelphia, and rioters are taking vengeance on national birth rights in Cincinnati and calamity follows calamity in all the world, Thomas C. Sharp as an aid to Ex-Gov. Boggs who stands at the head of mobocracy and extermination, in these United States, and John C. Bennett, the pimp and file leader ofsuch mean harlots as Martha H. Brotherton and her predecessors from old Jezebel, whom the dogs eat; may flourish with impunity! O virtue! once the white robe of millions of freemen! how art thou alid aside to make sport for the black coats who drive innocent men, women and children from one state to another! O liberty! once the boasted asylum of the oppressed! -- "Where are the charms that sages have seen in thy face?" Where is thy pledge for all nations to come and set under their own vine and fig tree, where there should be none to molest or make afraid? ... 

 

 

 

 

 

This statement in The Wasprepresents the harshest possible charge, by the LDS Church at Nauvoo, against its former, faithful member, Miss Martha H. Brotherton of Lancashire, England. Apostle Smith's editorial statement provides no details as to just how it was that John C. Bennett served as the "pimp" for the newly arrived British convert, prior to the Church officials' offhanded dismissal of her claims (made against top Mormon leaders) just prior to the opening of the spring 1842 General Conference at Nauvoo. Possibly The Wasp's editor was insinuating that Brotherton only became an active prostitute following the publication of her report of the attempted seduction upon her body, carried out by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Joseph Smith, Jr., in Smith's office at Nauvoo. For an affidavit, by an English acquaintance of Miss Brotherton, defending her virtue and honor, see the letter of Thomas Smethurst in the July 27, 1842 issue of the Pittsburgh Morning Chronicle. Nearly a decade later, LDS Elder Thomas Smith continued to refute claims of polygamy among the Mormons, writing in the Church's official newspaper: "...12th LIE: Joseph Smith taught a system of polygamy... 13th LIE: That Joseph Smith tried to seduce Martha Brotherton... Martha Brotherton's sister sent a letter, stating that Martha was a liar; William Clayton did the same. Both are published in the Millennial Star, Vol. 3, pages 73, 74." (LDS Millennial Star, XII -- Jan. 15, 1850 -- pp. 29-31). 

 

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/LDS/wasp1.htm

 

 

 

 

Note: The editor of The Wasp here continues his previous predilection to impugn the chastity of Miss Martha Brotherton (who was labled a "mean harlot by her fellow Mormons in the issue of Aug. 27, 1842). By implying that "her virtue" has been unadmittedly "lost," editor William Smith accuses the young lady of sexual promiscuity and of misrepresenting herself to the world. This is basically the same LDS "party line" as was reportedly being promulgated by Church representatives in Pittsburgh, in July, when they stated that Miss Martha H. Brotherton's published affidavit was only "such evidence" as "was given by prostitutes, of whom a number were at Nauvoo." To this, a friend of the Brotherton family replied, in a sworn statement: "Being a friend, and one, too particularly acquainted with Miss Brotherton and her friends in England, I hereby declare such an aspersion of her character as becoming of a Mormon. She and her connections stand high in the society in which they moved in England prior to her becoming a Mormon, and when (as her cousin who was present at Nauvoo at the time informed me) in consequence of the base attack upon her virtue as set forth in her affidavit, she was compelled to fly for safety; she had to do so at night under the protection of her father. -- My opportunity to become acquainted with her character is as good as is possible to be derived in growing from childhood to adult age together; as neighbors living close together, going to school together, and members of the same Sabbath School, and under these circumstances, with indignation thrust back upon any individual who attempts to injure her character for virtue or truth, his own vile slanders, whether he be Elder Wm. Small of the Mormons, or any other. -- Thomas Smethurst. 

 

Martha had this account legally notarized and it was first published in theSt. Louis Bulletin. Following its publication, the church once again started sending out affidavits declaring that polygamy was not practiced among the saints and that Martha Brotherton was a liar. In response to Martha’s affidavit, an Elder in the church declared that “such evidence was given by prostitutes.”58

 

 

 

For the last claim for Nancy:

 

Elder Orson Hyde, Speech before High Priests Quorum April 27, 1845. See:http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MO/miscstl2.htm http://sidneyrigdon.com/Hyd1845A.htm

Edited August 30, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

What is the actual source for this?

 

"The prophet labeled Sarah a '[whore] from her mother's breast.'¹ Martha Brotherton was branded a 'mean harlot.'² while Nancy was tagged a 'poor miserable girl out of the very slough of prostitution."³ (Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess [salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994], 299)

 

_______________________________

 

¹Sangamo Journal, 29 July 1842, p. 2.

²Wasp, 27 August 1842.

³Speech of Elder Orson Hyde delivered before the High Priests quorum in Nauvoo, April 27th, 1845 upon the course and conduct of Mr. Sidney Rigdon, and upon the merits of his claims to the presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1845), p. 28.

[why me]

And yet, according to Nancy's brother, all was well in the end. What to believe? Did Nancy leave the church? And what about her brother? I would tend to go by her brother's statement,

[Nevo]

So what is the problem? I see no problem.

 

Other than Joseph Smith making an unwanted proposal of polygamous marriage to his First Counselor's daughter, scandalizing her family and acquaintances in the process, and then that abortive secret proposal getting out and becoming "the talk of the town" (and eventually the state), it was all good, right?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nevo

[why me]

Other than Joseph Smith making an unwanted proposal of polygamous marriage to his First Counselor's daughter, scandalizing her family and acquaintances in the process, and then that abortive secret proposal getting out and becoming "the talk of the town" (and eventually the state), it was all good, right?

And here is what I see. Joseph asks Nancy to be a plural wife. She says no. Then there is a problem with Nancy who was offended by the proposal. Joseph tries to make it right and eventually succeeds. At least according to her brother. I would think that if a woman says no to a proposal it is unwanted.

 

But it certainly isn't what Bennett claimed happened and what the critics take as his word as fact. But this episode does sow doubt that sidney was the author of the book of mormon.

[foster]

"The story got out and it became the talk of the town that Joseph had made a proposition to Nancy Rigdon to become his wife, and that she refused him. A few days after the occurrence Joseph Smith came to my father’s house and talked the matter over with the family [and] my sister… The feelings manifested by our family on this occasion were anything but brotherly or sisterly, more especially on the part of Nancy, as she felt that she had been insulted. A day or two later Joseph Smith returned to my father’s house, when matters were satisfactorily adjusted between them and there the matter ended.[2]"

 

 

Whyme, do you think that covers all the fine details of the incident? Certainly, there is more to the story.  Feelings being "anything but brotherly or sisterly", sure leaves a hole in the history of the event.

[why me]

"The story got out and it became the talk of the town that Joseph had made a proposition to Nancy Rigdon to become his wife, and that she refused him. A few days after the occurrence Joseph Smith came to my father’s house and talked the matter over with the family [and] my sister… The feelings manifested by our family on this occasion were anything but brotherly or sisterly, more especially on the part of Nancy, as she felt that she had been insulted. A day or two later Joseph Smith returned to my father’s house, when matters were satisfactorily adjusted between them and there the matter ended.[2]"

 

 

Whyme, do you think that covers all the fine details of the incident? Certainly, there is more to the story.  Feelings being "anything but brotherly or sisterly", sure leaves a hole in the history of the event.

I don't know. However, the critics seem to imply that the hurt feelings remained. The brother says differently. Why would the brother lie? I am sure that more was said and spoken about but to believe that Bennett was an insider would be a mistake. And yet, the critics and exmos take bennett and attempt to score a touchdown in casting doubt in members minds about this incident. And they tend to overlook Nancy's brother's statement.

 

One more thing about the linked statement. It seems that polygamy was rather well known in Nauvoo if the rumor was all over town. The critics claim that polygamy was a secret.

Edited August 30, 2013 by why me

[cinepro]

One more thing about the linked statement. It seems that polygamy was rather well known in Nauvoo if the rumor was all over town. The critics claim that polygamy was a secret.

I think we can use Emma as the benchmark for what was or wasn't "secret". If Joseph was able to keep her from finding out something (or believing the rumors), then it was a secret.

Based on that criteria, would you say polygamy was a secret or not?

Edited August 30, 2013 by cinepro

[foster]

I don't know. However, the critics seem to imply that the hurt feelings remained. The brother says differently. Why would the brother lie? I am sure that more was said and spoken about but to believe that Bennett was an insider would be a mistake. And yet, the critics and exmos take bennett and attempt to score a touchdown in casting doubt in members minds about this incident. And they tend to overlook Nancy's brother's statement.

 

One more thing about the linked statement. It seems that polygamy was rather well known in Nauvoo if the rumor was all over town. The critics claim that polygamy was a secret.

 

 

What is it exactly you are trying to "defend" against? Your purpose is not clear from your opening post. 

 

And lest we beat a dead horse, polygamy was "secret" and it was denied - people knew about it yes, not everyone, and people who knew about it denied it. It is not relevant if people denied it for a purpose, the fact is for whatever post-facto reason anyone conjures up, polygamy was attempted to be hidden. It is ridiculous to to suggest otherwise.

Edited August 30, 2013 by foster

[cinepro]

And here is what I see. Joseph asks Nancy to be a plural wife. She says no. Then there is a problem with Nancy who was offended by the proposal. Joseph tries to make it right and eventually succeeds. At least according to her brother. I would think that if a woman says no to a proposal it is unwanted.

 

But it certainly isn't what Bennett claimed happened and what the critics take as his word as fact. But this episode does sow doubt that sidney was the author of the book of mormon.

Just so we're all clear, what are you saying that Bennett claimed that isn't corroborated by these other accounts?

[Nevo]

Joseph tries to make it right and eventually succeeds.

 

Yes, Joseph "made it right" by denying that he ever wanted Nancy as a wife. He was just testing her virtue, he claimed. Why? Because he wanted to prepare her to resist seducers preaching spiritual wifery (see stanza 13, "The Buckey's First Epistle to Jo," Warsaw Signal, 25 April 1844, 1; see also, Gary James Bergera, "Buckeye's Laments: Two Early Insider Exposes of Mormon Polygamy and Their Authorship," Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society 95, no. 4 [2002/2003]: 350–390). It seems Joseph wasn't yet comfortable revealing his practice of polygamy to his First Counselor.

 

Sidney's reaction can be guessed at from Joseph's journal entries. On 13 May 1842 we read: "[H]ad a private interview with Prest Rigdon with much apparent satisfaction to all parties. concerning certain evil reports put  in circulation by F. M. [Higbee]—about Prest Rigdons family & others." However, the JSP editors note that this truce was short-lived: "Rigdon and his family openly turned against JS six weeks later."

 

Joseph's journal for 28 June records: "Much unplesat feeling was manifested by Elder Rigdon's family who were confounded & put to silence by the truth. from Prst—Joseph." A few days later, according to the JSP editors, "Rigdon asked JS to go on a ride with him out onto the prairie where they could 'settle forever all difficulties, and be again at everlasting peace.' Rigdon encouraged JS to invite Hyrum Smith along if he wanted but otherwise asked JS to 'say not a word to any person living.' (Sidney Rigdon, Nauvoo, IL, to JS, Nauvoo, IL, 1 July 1842, JS Collection, CHL)."

 

The following year, Joseph unsuccessfully tried to have Sidney dropped from the First Presidency. Relations between the two men would remain strained until Joseph's death.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nevo

[why me]

I think we can use Emma as the benchmark for what was or wasn't "secret". If Joseph was able to keep her from finding out something (or believing the rumors), then it was a secret.

Based on that criteria, would you say polygamy was a secret or not?

Maybe. But if the rumor was all over Nauvoo I would think that she may have heard about it. Not to mention that fact that the ensign once mentioned that one of joseph's wives was living at the mansion house.

[cinepro]

Maybe. But if the rumor was all over Nauvoo I would think that she may have heard about it. Not to mention that fact that the ensign once mentioned that one of joseph's wives was living at the mansion house.

 

Maybe she believed Joseph when he said the rumors weren't true? 

 

And she probably couldn't peer through time and read Church magazines from the next century. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by cinepro

[why me]

Just so we're all clear, what are you saying that Bennett claimed that isn't corroborated by these other accounts?

I am saying that Bennett can not be trusted. I still have to go on what nancy's brother stated. He should know what exactly happened. I am also saying that the critics use Bennett to cause doubt in members' minds. However, they overlook nancy's brother.

[cinepro]

I am saying that Bennett can not be trusted. I still have to go on what nancy's brother stated. He should know what exactly happened. I am also saying that the critics use Bennett to cause doubt in members' minds. However, they overlook nancy's brother.

 

I don't know what you don't want me to trust about Bennett. I don't know what he said that is different than what everyone else said.

 

So fill in the blank:

 

"Bennett's claim that ___________________ happened shouldn't be trusted."

[why me]

Yes, Joseph "made it right" by denying that he ever wanted Nancy as a wife. He was just testing her virtue, he claimed. Why? Because he wanted to prepare her to resist seducers preaching spiritual wifery (see stanza 13, "The Buckey's First Epistle to Jo," Warsaw Signal, 25 April 1844, 1; see also, Gary James Bergera, "Buckeye's Laments: Two Early Insider Exposes of Mormon Polygamy and Their Authorship," Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society 95, no. 4 [2002/2003]: 350–390). It seems Joseph wasn't yet comfortable revealing his practice of polygamy to his First Counselor.

 

Sidney's reaction can be guessed at from Joseph's journal entries. On 13 May 1842 we read: "[H]ad a private interview with Prest Rigdon with much apparent satisfaction to all parties. concerning certain evil reports put  in circulation by F. M. [Higbee]—about Prest Rigdons family & others." However, the JSP editors note that this truce was short-lived: "Rigdon and his family openly turned against JS six weeks later."

 

Joseph's journal for 28 June records: "Much unplesat feeling was manifested by Elder Rigdon's family who were confounded & put to silence by the truth. from Prst—Joseph." A few days later, according to the JSP editors, "Rigdon asked JS to go on a ride with him out onto the prairie where they could 'settle forever all difficulties, and be again at everlasting peace.' Rigdon encouraged JS to invite Hyrum Smith along if he wanted but otherwise asked JS to 'say not a word to any person living.' (Sidney Rigdon, Nauvoo, IL, to JS, Nauvoo, IL, 1 July 1842, JS Collection, CHL)."

 

The following year, Joseph unsuccessfully tried to have Sidney dropped from the First Presidency. Relations between the two men would remain strained until Joseph's death.

At the end of the day, sidney went to his death still believing in the book of mormon. Regardless of his problems with Joseph, it did not affect his testimony of the book of mormon. I am sure that it was not all smooth sailing for the both of them. Both were disappointed in the other. And it seems that joseph made a mistake with nancy. But regardless of the problems, sidney believed in the book of mormon.

 

My premise was simple: when we consider the nancy, josesph episode, we need to take into account the words of her brother. The critics overlook him because he doesn't fit their worldview.

[why me]

I don't know what you don't want me to trust about Bennett. I don't know what he said that is different than what everyone else said.

 

So fill in the blank:

 

"Bennett's claim that ___________________ happened shouldn't be trusted."

I go by what the linked to sight said about him and the topic of Nancy:

 

Perhaps the biggest weakness of this allegation is that is comes from John C. Bennett, a known prevaricator and opportunist.  Several authors consider him a "polygamy-insider" at Nauvoo, but recent research demonstrates that he was not.

Bennett's claim is problematic.  As discussed in his biographical description, he admitted he never learned about eternal marriage during his Nauvoo stay.  Joseph Smith never taught plural marriage, except within the context that they could be eternal unions.  Bennett's admission of ignorance of eternal marriage supports he never once was personally taught by the Prophet concerning it or plural marriage. 

Hence, it is difficult to imagine any private conversation regarding plural marriage to have occurred, despite Bennett's recollections.  Also any intimate conversation recalled by Bennett concerning "spiritual wifery" with Joseph Smith is suspect.  In his teachings about the new and everlasting covenant, the Prophet did not use the term "spiritual wifery."

[why me]

Maybe she believed Joseph when he said the rumors weren't true? 

 

And she probably couldn't peer through time and read Church magazines from the next century. 

I don't know. She could have went to the horse's mouth and asked sidney or nancy. They were still around. Most wives would do that, I believe.

[juliann]

 She could have. . . Most wives would do that, I believe.

And this reasoning is the weak link in this awesome compilation of data and sources.  There is way too much reliance on lack of evidence as evidence.  That Compton/Bergera/Hales are critiquing each other for doing exactly what they do themselves should give fair warning as to the reliability of conclusions based on what is admittedly sparse information.  The place to go to find anything from Emma's perspective is Mormon Enigma. 

[WmLaw]

I am saying that Bennett can not be trusted. I still have to go on what nancy's brother stated. He should know what exactly happened. I am also saying that the critics use Bennett to cause doubt in members' minds. However, they overlook nancy's brother.

 

What did Bennett claim, that you are refuting with the brother's account?

[cinepro]

I go by what the linked to sight said about him and the topic of Nancy:

 

Perhaps the biggest weakness of this allegation is that is comes from John C. Bennett, a known prevaricator and opportunist.  Several authors consider him a "polygamy-insider" at Nauvoo, but recent research demonstrates that he was not.

Bennett's claim is problematic.  As discussed in his biographical description, he admitted he never learned about eternal marriage during his Nauvoo stay.  Joseph Smith never taught plural marriage, except within the context that they could be eternal unions.  Bennett's admission of ignorance of eternal marriage supports he never once was personally taught by the Prophet concerning it or plural marriage. 

Hence, it is difficult to imagine any private conversation regarding plural marriage to have occurred, despite Bennett's recollections.  Also any intimate conversation recalled by Bennett concerning "spiritual wifery" with Joseph Smith is suspect.  In his teachings about the new and everlasting covenant, the Prophet did not use the term "spiritual wifery."

 

As far as I can tell, the parts of the Nancy Ridgon story that most people find objectionable are parts that are wholly agreed upon, not anything that is solely attested to by Bennett.

 

This article has a pretty good coverage of the whole incident, starting on page 34:

 

link removed

 

The article has "for private use only" clearly stamped on it.  You are out of the thread and will be off the board if you put us in that position again.

[Nevo]

This article has a pretty good coverage of the whole incident, starting on page 34:

 

link removed

 

I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for linking it. Greg's paper is very thorough and well-argued.

[Calm]

 The place to go to find anything from Emma's perspective is Mormon Enigma. 

However, one needs to be careful there as well.  I checked out one reference they gave for Helen Mar Kimball which neglected to state that it was not a firsthand source but one from an anti-mormon publication where it was claimed she shared intimate feelings with someone who would not naturally be a confidant.

 

Bottomline....always go to the original sources to see what they have to say, no matter who is doing the research.