War & Peace

[DBMormon]

 

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com
We interview Patrick Mason, one of the editors of the book "War & Peace In Our Time : Mormon Perspectives". We discuss War and Peace in the scriptures, in our LDS culture, and in our views within our Church community. Patrick and I discuss how a LDS can be a faithful, active, participating Latter-Day Saint while one's personal beliefs fall anywhere along the spectrum of believing in a "Just War" is condoned by God to the other extreme of being a pacifist. That in reflection there is plenty of room for faith within this issue once we grasp how to navigate our way through scriptures and what is Doctrine.


The book - War & Peace can be purchased at Greg Kofford Books at the link below
http://www.gregkofford.com/products/war ... n-our-time

 

 

Part of my montra is to try and give people flexibility in the gospel and not hold them to bad assumptions and unrealistic expectations.  This interview tries to do so with Military Action and other violence.

 

Questions discussed there and hopefully here

- can one be a complete pacifist an still feel included in the gospel tent?

- Does the Book of Mormon really call us to fight for the things the Title of Liberty represents?

- Is added flexibility in issues like this and others a good thing for struggling saints

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

 

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com

We interview Patrick Mason, one of the editors of the book "War & Peace In Our Time : Mormon Perspectives". We discuss War and Peace in the scriptures, in our LDS culture, and in our views within our Church community. Patrick and I discuss how a LDS can be a faithful, active, participating Latter-Day Saint while one's personal beliefs fall anywhere along the spectrum of believing in a "Just War" is condoned by God to the other extreme of being a pacifist. That in reflection there is plenty of room for faith within this issue once we grasp how to navigate our way through scriptures and what is Doctrine.

The book - War & Peace can be purchased at Greg Kofford Books at the link below

http://www.gregkofford.com/products/war ... n-our-time

 

 

Part of my montra is to try and give people flexibility in the gospel and not hold them to bad assumptions and unrealistic expectations.  This interview tries to do so with Military Action and other violence.

 

Questions discussed there and hopefully here

- can one be a complete pacifist an still feel included in the gospel tent?

- Does the Book of Mormon really call us to fight for the things the Title of Liberty represents?

- Is added flexibility in issues like this and others a good thing for struggling saints

 

1. Yes.

2. It permits it, it doesn't demand it.

3. Always.

[CV75]

Part of my montra is to try and give people flexibility in the gospel and not hold them to bad assumptions and unrealistic expectations.  This interview tries to do so with Military Action and other violence.

 

Questions discussed there and hopefully here

- can one be a complete pacifist an still feel included in the gospel tent?

- Does the Book of Mormon really call us to fight for the things the Title of Liberty represents?

- Is added flexibility in issues like this and others a good thing for struggling saints

Montra is protection; mantra aids meditation. Montra is definitely more asocaited with conflict.

 

Of course one can be a complete pacifist (or if labels must be used, any other label that comes second to "saint") and feel included in the gosepl tent, as this is what living the Gospel is about. The Book of Mormon teachings on war have to do with following God's prophets in a very prescribed manner. Flexibility is good for struggling saints to possess and exhibit as well as their friends who are not struggling.

[ZelphtheGreat]

J. Reuben Clark and some of the other LDS leaders were pacifists before and during WWII. Even went so far as to make statements supporting Adolf Hitler - with most of these before the US became actively involved.

 

The march from pacifist and anti-war to supporting the US Government in the Viet Nam war is an interesting one.

[bu11fr0g]

CFR j reuben Clark made statements supporting hitler.

[Tacenda]

CFR j reuben Clark made statements supporting hitler.

I think it's a possibility. I know that during a Mormonmatter's podcast interview with Nibley's son and son in law, the son said his father leaned toward anti-Semitism at one point and spent time in Germany and it was his dream to study over there.

[morgan.deane]

CFR j reuben Clark made statements supporting hitler.

I detailed Clark's statements here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-butchers-apostle-context-for-anti.html

 

The War and Peace volume was specifically organized to discuss various non violent and pacifist ideas, but my essay on preemptive war is included as well. So various view points are represented within the volume.  http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2012/08/war-and-peace-in-our-time.html

[bu11fr0g]

Could you provide an actual quote. All i found were opaque references to Quinns book. Advocating settlement I wouldnt consider proNazi.

[The Nehor]

There are few hard and fast rules. Captain Moroni fought for freedom. Ammon's converted Lamanites chose to die rather then fight. Both seem to have been accepted by God.

 

Alma called on his people to resist aggression. Jeremiah preached political capitulation.

 

1. I think it is dangerous to be a complete pacifist because God may call on you to fight and now you pit your philosophy against God's will. Same thing with being a military hawk when God wants peace. Being dedicated to -isms is dangerous because they can pit you against the will of God who is practical and encourages us to act with what will work in specific situations rather then urging us to dedicate ourselves to a specific philosophy.

 

2. Usually but not always.

 

3. Yes.

[thesometimesaint]

I think that what J Ruben Clark is saying is that to be a pacifist is to be pro Nazi. Which really is a non sequitur. Also the Church never established those particular ideas on war as doctrine.

 

http://www.wheatandtares.org/12350/j-reuben-clark-pacifist-or-pro-nazi/

[morgan.deane]

I think that what J Ruben Clark is saying is that to be a pacifist is to be pro Nazi. Which really is a non sequitur. Also the Church never established those particular ideas on war as doctrine.

 

http://www.wheatandtares.org/12350/j-reuben-clark-pacifist-or-pro-nazi/

Close, but J. Reuben Clark was a pacifist, and the article you linked to was a copy of the one I linked to which described how being anti war can sometimes make you pro other things, and in this case pro Nazi. Clark wasn't saying that if you are against the war you are pro Nazi, he was against the war and made a number of surprisingly pro Nazi statements.. 

 

Thats why I often say that I'm pro war to the extent that I'm anti genocide, anti mass rape, and anti aggressive homicidal dictators seeking weapons of mass destruction. 

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe he was that much of a pacificiist. In WW1 he joined the US Army Reserves

 

"“The older I get, the more I see, the more experience I obtain, the more I become convinced that the peace propaganda and the present peace propagandists are both equally impractical and illusory, as also inimical to the interests of the this nation. If we get into war…we shall have to put some of them in jail, and personally I should like to begin with progressives and anti imperialist, William Jennings Bryan".

 

“In so far as it hampers the British war effort, British pacifism is on the side of the Nazis and German pacifism, if it exists, is on the side of Britain and the USSR. Since pacifists have more freedom of action in countries where traces of democracy survive, pacifism can act more effectively against democracy than for it. Objectively the pacifist is pro-Nazi.”

 

“Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.’”

 

I don't believe he was pro Nazi especially after the atrocities of WW2 were made public, but he wasn't a pacificist either.

Edited August 25, 2013 by thesometimesaint